Any chance to get the June cards online this month? I am not up for paying $25 each to get them off e-bay. Unless that is the only option for players now.
Any chance to get the June cards online this month? I am not up for paying $25 each to get them off e-bay. Unless that is the only option for players now.
Although i have seen print out of the new cards that some fellow players recieved access to. So the files is out there but in low numbers. Right now I cant even get access to it
Although i have seen print out of the new cards that some fellow players recieved access to. So the files is out there but in low numbers. Right now I cant even get access to it
Although i have seen print out of the new cards that some fellow players recieved access to. So the files is out there but in low numbers. Right now I cant even get access to it
I'd have to believe that when the PDF is legitimately released, it'll be rapidly disseminated. Which makes me wonder about the origin of the printouts that you seem to have seen.
I'd have to believe that when the PDF is legitimately released, it'll be rapidly disseminated. Which makes me wonder about the origin of the printouts that you seem to have seen.
Although i have seen print out of the new cards that some fellow players recieved access to. So the files is out there but in low numbers. Right now I cant even get access to it
I'd have to believe that when the PDF is legitimately released, it'll be rapidly disseminated. Which makes me wonder about the origin of the printouts that you seem to have seen.
I'm pretty sure that what he has seen was actually just scans of the card made by people to show what the cards look like - not an early copy of the official file.
Carl
I'd have to believe that when the PDF is legitimately released, it'll be rapidly disseminated. Which makes me wonder about the origin of the printouts that you seem to have seen.I'm pretty sure that what he has seen was actually just scans of the c
To bring this (marginally?) back on-topic, I had the chance to talk to Chris last week.
He's aware of the lack of a new Rewards Cards PDF - and it's on his list of things to do, though other internal WotC priorities had to come first. Con Season also set him back a good bit.
So, it hasn't been forgotten.
Ok, This was about a month ago how long does it take to upload a PDF file. I understand Con season and all but we are way past that.
Ok, This was about a month ago how long does it take to upload a PDF file. I understand Con season and all but we are way past that.
The timeline that was presented said that there would be two sets of cards posted this year. Since the first set was expected in June, and the second set in December, they are running four months behind.
html_removedhtml_removedhtml_removedhtml_removedhtml_removedhtml_removedhtml_removedhtml_removedThe timeline that was presented said that there would be two sets of cards posted this year. Since the first set was expected in June, and the second set
Although i have seen print out of the new cards that some fellow players recieved access to. So the files is out there but in low numbers. Right now I cant even get access to it
I'd have to believe that when the PDF is legitimately released, it'll be rapidly disseminated. Which makes me wonder about the origin of the printouts that you seem to have seen.
I'm pretty sure that what he has seen was actually just scans of the card made by people to show what the cards look like - not an early copy of the official file.
No I saw the actuall PDF file, It's the same format of the 2008 cards. And the guy that had the file, recieved it from a nice source.. Hopefully DDI will release these cards soon.
Carl
I'd have to believe that when the PDF is legitimately released, it'll be rapidly disseminated. Which makes me wonder about the origin of the printouts that you seem to have seen.I'm pretty sure that what he has seen was actually just scans of the c
To be fair anyone with a modicum of skill could make a pdf of the files and have it look nice and official. I could do it and I'm no adobe expert. The point the others were trying to make is that no official file has been released. It may have been nice and it may have been a nice source that gave it to him. If it truly is an official file I'm sure Chris Tulach would love to know who leaked it.
To be fair anyone with a modicum of skill could make a pdf of the files and have it look nice and official. I could do it and I'm no adobe expert. The point the others were trying to make is that no official file has been released. It may have
While it is only an assumption, most printers like to receive copies of the file they plan to print in specific formats, many times PDF's are an option. I would think it would not be hard to have a PDF file of the cards if that's what they used to print the originals so it would only require locking (Password protection) and shipment. Shipment may be the harder part.
As far as the current mailing, I am not sure if they are delayed because of adding points for GenCon judging, I noticed none of my 9 sessions show in My Events, maybe they still need to add those for people that should get points counted from Cons (if they plan to add them this time). It would be nice to come up with another reporting system such as requiring input by GM's before they leave the con and the data simply needs to be double checked and confirmed/submitted. It would save paying a bunch of people to input the information.
That being said, I got my ship tiles on Monday, so at least I got them in 2009.
While it is only an assumption, most printers like to receive copies of the file they plan to print in specific formats, many times PDF's are an option. I would think it would not be hard to have a PDF file of the cards if that's what they used to
While it is only an assumption, most printers like to receive copies of the file they plan to print in specific formats, many times PDF's are an option. I would think it would not be hard to have a PDF file of the cards if that's what they used to print the originals so it would only require locking (Password protection) and shipment. Shipment may be the harder part.
The file will be posted on the RPGA section of the website and only a letter with the password will be mailed.
Although the might just save themselves the postage and the environment all this wasted paper and post the file without password.
As far as the current mailing, I am not sure if they are delayed because of adding points for GenCon judging, I noticed none of my 9 sessions show in My Events, maybe they still need to add those for people that should get points counted from Cons (if they plan to add them this time). It would be nice to come up with another reporting system such as requiring input by GM's before they leave the con and the data simply needs to be double checked and confirmed/submitted. It would save paying a bunch of people to input the information
The reward cards are no longer part of the point earning system
The file will be posted on the RPGA section of the website and only a letter with the password will be mailed. Although the might just save themselves the postage and the environment all this wasted paper and post the file without password.The reward
The file will be posted on the RPGA section of the website and only a letter with the password will be mailed.
Although the might just save themselves the postage and the environment all this wasted paper and post the file without password.
The reward cards are no longer part of the point earning system
I realize only the password will be mailed, but if they printed cards for delves (those that I assume will be the bulk of the pdf) they should have the file ready and the only hold up is mailing the letter. It may be more an issue of determining who is to get it. In reality, it would likely be cheaper to say we will email you the link or add a section in the DCI rewards area that has a download link and it simply adds to everyone that has the points. That would save them the mail of the letter as well and you could get to them at anytime, with only those that got the points having access to the file until it is saved/copied.
As far as the rewards cards not being part of the system I am not sure I will ever remember that because no matter how many times I realize it I always seem to post otherwise.
I realize only the password will be mailed, but if they printed cards for delves (those that I assume will be the bulk of the pdf) they should have the file ready and the only hold up is mailing the letter. It may be more an issue of determining wh
I would like to see the rewards password come via e-mail rather than snail mail. I lost that letter ages ago and track the pword digitally. If they send anything via mail it should be actual cards, which some people will treasure as collectibles or just to have at the table.
I would like to see RPGA rewards come out on time. When a schedule is communicated, it should be upheld. I have a good idea of the types of things that could be on Tulach's plate slowing things down, and I would agree those are probably more important (such as decisions on mods for the next big con), but something as periodical as the rewards should work seamlessly in the background with little need for his time. If the convention schedule is so amazingly throwing everything off track, then RPGA/WotC should analyze that and make some changes. Let me be clear that I think Tulach is great for the job, but the process needs corrections. Saying that August-October will be insane isn't really a good idea, even if we tolerate it because this is a hobby (which it is) and/or we like the people involved (which I do).
Regarding GenCon judging, strangely, they were supposed to now have a way to bring in the results via database. It is amazing that this much time can pass without events showing up. You only need a few events for receiving judge rewards (such as ship tiles) and I suspect GenCon judges make the points up with many other events, but it still should operate better as a process.
I would like to see the rewards password come via e-mail rather than snail mail. I lost that letter ages ago and track the pword digitally. If they send anything via mail it should be actual cards, which some people will treasure as collectibles or j
Maybe this is going to become an every 2-year pdf. Maybe they are putting the cards through added playtesting for game balance.
Nothing wrong with that of course.
Maybe this is going to become an every 2-year pdf. Maybe they are putting the cards through added playtesting for game balance.Nothing wrong with that of course.
I have no idea if I ever got a letter with the password or not. I want to download the current pdf, but I don't have a password. Am I just SOL? Seems pretty terrible that everyone can print them off and bring them to games and I can't. I'm not really sure why the pdf is even password protected to begin with. If it is password protected, but I'm an RPGA rewards member, shouldn't I be able to look the password up or something? The whole system seems really... (struggling to find a polite word here) not well thought out.
I have no idea if I ever got a letter with the password or not. I want to download the current pdf, but I don't have a password. Am I just SOL? Seems pretty terrible that everyone can print them off and bring them to games and I can't. I'm no
I have no idea if I ever got a letter with the password or not. I want to download the current pdf, but I don't have a password. Am I just SOL? Seems pretty terrible that everyone can print them off and bring them to games and I can't. I'm not really sure why the pdf is even password protected to begin with. If it is password protected, but I'm an RPGA rewards member, shouldn't I be able to look the password up or something? The whole system seems really... (struggling to find a polite word here) not well thought out.
These are rewards cards. They are a reward for being an active member. Thus, they are available to active members who kept their address up to date. If you were a member at the time, they mailed you a letter with the password. A password is used to protect the reward aspect. If they were just cards, and not rewards cards, then it would make sense to just have them available for everyone.
The current system is actually very player and DM friendly. You don't have to do much at all to get them. In contrast, back in the previous system each time I had a child and went on RPGA hiatus, I would miss lots of cards. There was no way to get them, unless I purchased them, traded for them, or they decided to reprint one. I had no problem with that, because I didn't earn the reward during that time. It was fair. The great DMs in my area had buckets of them, which they deserved.
Having said all that, I'm sure that if you explain the situation to customer service, they will send you the RPGA password. Or, you may search for any of numerous posts where players have posted the password (for whatever reason).
Personally, I see the current system as being a big convention rewards system. If you go to the big cons, you get these cards then and there. I've had a Kenku PC for a while due to judging at GenCon and PAX, my buddy who went to D&DXP has had Lucky Shot for ages while I only got one recently from a friend. Later, when the download is available, everyone gets access. I'm fairly neutral on the system. I like that it promotes cons. I don't like that the way to get them at cons is to judge most of the con and/or to play the non-RP delve several times. I would like to see the reward cards be something that judges earn more easily.
These are rewards cards. They are a reward for being an active member. Thus, they are available to active members who kept their address up to date. If you were a member at the time, they mailed you a letter with the password. A password is used to p
Personally, I see the current system as being a big convention rewards system. If you go to the big cons, you get these cards then and there. ..... I would like to see the reward cards be something that judges earn more easily.
They are only Con rewards if you run a full day of events where I live. Three events minimum; 9am - 1 pm, 2 pm - 6 pm, and 7 pm - 11 pm. You could run them on different days but you had to do three of them total. The only way for players to get them around here is to buy them on e-bay for $25.00 each. iirc the two biggest sellers list Wizards as their previous employer.
It would have been nice if they included some in the Weekend in the Realm packs.
They are only Con rewards if you run a full day of events where I live. Three events minimum; 9am - 1 pm, 2 pm - 6 pm, and 7 pm - 11 pm. You could run them on different days but you had to do three of them total. The only way for players to get them
Any news on the download? I guess this is my monthly bump...
Random Voice: Let me see your rewards points total. Anthraxus: [with a small wave of his hand] You don't need to see his point total. Random Voice: We don't need to see his point total. Anthraxus: These aren't this quarter's points anymore. Random Voice: These aren't this quarter's points anymore. Anthraxus: He can go about his business you won't see any rewards. Random Voice: You can go about your business you won't see any rewards. Anthraxus: Move along. Random Voice: Move along... move along.
Random Voice: Let me see your rewards points total. Anthraxus: [with a small wave of his hand] You don't need to see his point total. Random Voice: We don't need to see his point total. Anthraxus: These aren't this quarter's points anymore. Random V
Well there is a PDF of the new cards out. As i have a copy. It was being passed around at a con i went to
As was noted upthread, such a PDF is likely the result of someone scanning the 2009 cards and creating their own PDF, rather than WotC secretly releasing the file to a select few.
As was noted upthread, such a PDF is likely the result of someone scanning the 2009 cards and creating their own PDF, rather than WotC secretly releasing the file to a select few.
Ah, technology. Fans can provide the pdf before the company does...
Of course, it's not legal until WotC releases it...
True. I was merely marveling at the powers before us and the ironic world we live in. It reminds me of video production in Oryx and Crake, where the technology becomes so readily available that companies can no longer do it better.
In theory, it should take WotC no time at all to create the pdf. Somewhere they have all the digital images. They just need to pull it together and post it.
With today's technology, anyone with the cards can scan them and create the pdf, all at excellent quality.
The problem is process.
But, what you write is true. Even if we find such a pdf, we should not use it. Technological capability should not remove moral restraint. The rules are, and should be, the rules!
Of course, it's not legal until WotC releases it...True. I was merely remarking at the powers before us and the ironic world we live in. It reminds me of video production in , where the technology becomes so readily available that companies can no lo
In theory, it should take WotC no time at all to create the pdf. Somewhere they have all the digital images. They just need to pull it together and post it.
Don't do it Wizards! Keep doing what your doing. Snap out of it is good enough for everyone.
Don't do it Wizards! Keep doing what your doing. Snap out of it is good enough for everyone.
In theory, it should take WotC no time at all to create the pdf. Somewhere they have all the digital images. They just need to pull it together and post it.
Don't do it Wizards! Keep doing what your doing. Snap out of it is good enough for everyone.
What? I mean, our PCs can currently get stunned... surely an oversight. I'm waiting for "Un-Stun Out of It", "Un-bloody Out of It", "Un-Die Out of It", and "Skip to Rewards Section".
Don't do it Wizards! Keep doing what your doing. Snap out of it is good enough for everyone.What? I mean, our PCs can currently get stunned... surely an oversight. I'm waiting for "Un-Stun Out of It", "Un-bloody Out of It", "Un-Die Out of It", and "S
In theory, it should take WotC no time at all to create the pdf. Somewhere they have all the digital images. They just need to pull it together and post it.
Don't do it Wizards! Keep doing what your doing. Snap out of it is good enough for everyone.
What? I mean, our PCs can currently get stunned... surely an oversight. I'm waiting for "Un-Stun Out of It", "Un-bloody Out of It", "Un-Die Out of It", and "Skip to Rewards Section".
Plus the cards to unlock Beholder and Gold Dragon as playable races.
Don't do it Wizards! Keep doing what your doing. Snap out of it is good enough for everyone.What? I mean, our PCs can currently get stunned... surely an oversight. I'm waiting for "Un-Stun Out of It", "Un-bloody Out of It", "Un-Die Out of It", and "S
It would be nice if the second quest card was on general release, given that I've played three mods now with tasks for it, I know what the tasks are, but since I don't have the card in my stack I can't cross them off as completed.
It would be nice if the second quest card was on general release, given that I've played three mods now with tasks for it, I know what the tasks are, but since I don't have the card in my stack I can't cross them off as completed.
It would be nice if the second quest card was on general release, given that I've played three mods now with tasks for it, I know what the tasks are, but since I don't have the card in my stack I can't cross them off as completed.
I will be letting the players in my games to cross off the tasks they have completed when the card is available for download. I had one player ask about this and I told him not to purchase the card off e-bay. I did not like the idea of a player having to spend $25 to buy a card from a Wizards employee (or ex-employee) on ebay.
Anyone know if getting the June cards in some sort of complied end of year download? I fear the response will be like the one previously given, that blamed the GenCon convention, but change it to blame the thanksgiving/xmas/new years holiday.
I will be letting the players in my games to cross off the tasks they have completed when the card is available for download. I had one player ask about this and I told him not to purchase the card off e-bay. I did not like the idea of a player havin
Well, they did finally release TYMA1-4, so we do know that even way-overdue stuff eventually does happen.
It's just painful for those of us who have to wait.
Damon
Well, they did finally release TYMA1-4, so we do know that even way-overdue stuff eventually does happen.It's just painful for those of us who have to wait. :-/Damon
I would not count on the cards being released exactly one year later. They released them last year when it was convenient to do so, and while it may be convenient at approximately the same time this year, there is no policy to release them at exactly that time, and there are many things filling the OP pipeline right now that weren't last year.
Also, unless there's been an announcement that I've missed, I don't know that you can count on knowing the contents of the mailing, either.
I would not count on the cards being released exactly one year later. They released them last year when it was convenient to do so, and while it may be convenient at approximately the same time this year, there is no policy to release them at exact
I would not count on the cards being released exactly one year later. They released them last year when it was convenient to do so, and while it may be convenient at approximately the same time this year, there is no policy to release them at exactly that time, and there are many things filling the OP pipeline right now that weren't last year.
Also, unless there's been an announcement that I've missed, I don't know that you can count on knowing the contents of the mailing, either.
Wizards said they would release the cards twice a year.
Wizards said they would release the cards twice a year.
Release does not mean send. They release prisoners all the time.
I think it is time I try changing my address to my Waterdeep summer villa. Maybe they have a better mail system.
Release does not mean send. They release prisoners all the time.I think it is time I try changing my address to my Waterdeep summer villa. Maybe they have a better mail system.
Given that I just got a Furious Evocation from a con I went to, I'm inclined to not expect a Furious Evocation download all that soon. That or their card support for that convention was just mean.
Given that I just got a Furious Evocation from a con I went to, I'm inclined to not expect a Furious Evocation download all that soon. That or their card support for that convention was just mean.
Given that I just got a Furious Evocation from a con I went to, I'm inclined to not expect a Furious Evocation download all that soon. That or their card support for that convention was just mean.
It just means that the convention was handing out old cards for lack of WotC providing any new cards.
It just means that the convention was handing out old cards for lack of WotC providing any new cards.
Eh, dunno. I mean, the Kenku card is likely useful regardless. Scramble to Safety I don't remember from that very first set, though I might just not remember it.
But Furious Evocation has been out a long time. You might be right, but I expect nothing before DDXP. If I'm wrong, I will be quite pleasantly surprised. Probably safest that way.
Eh, dunno. I mean, the Kenku card is likely useful regardless. Scramble to Safety I don't remember from that very first set, though I might just not remember it.But Furious Evocation has been out a long time. You might be right, but I expect nothing
It just means that the convention was handing out old cards for lack of WotC providing any new cards.
As the one that was running that con for Keith, I can say that they were not old cards. Could in fact be WotC providing old cards. I'm betting on DDXP for both new cards and/or release of the older cards to PDF.
As the one that was running that con for Keith, I can say that they were not old cards. Could in fact be WotC providing old cards. I'm betting on DDXP for both new cards and/or release of the older cards to PDF.
Hm. Wish WotC has sent me the promos 1-3 for my November con. Getting as many copies of promos 4-9 as I did (got 4 kits) leaves me with a lotta Kenkus (I will be bringing any spares I have to DDXP to give away as long as they are not still Delve prizes)...
Hm. Wish WotC has sent me the promos 1-3 for my November con. Getting as many copies of promos 4-9 as I did (got 4 kits) leaves me with a lotta Kenkus (I will be bringing any spares I have to DDXP to give away as long as they are not still Delve priz
The lack of a PDF is unlikely to be a coincidence. I think the wide spread use of Rewards Cards has distorted the play experience of the modules themselves. The PC's in our group regularly turn 5 or so misses into hits every session. The one time being dazed is devastating is when it is immediately eliminated. The cards have made the mods easier then intended.
However, if the mod writers increase the difficulty of the mods to compensate for the cards, what happens when a group plays without the cards? (I have never seen this, but it is technically possible).
My guess is the cards have proven very popular, but are also very difficult to deal with from a game design/development standpoint, and their use is being reconsidered.
Whether they are going to be retooled, deemphasized, or phased out entirely, I have no idea. I would guess the PTB don't know either which is why we are in this holding pattern on the 'June 2009 PDF'.
Maybe sometype of announcement will be made at DnD XP, maybe not. Certainly if there is intended to be a new distribution that would be the event to launch it. It is certainly possible, but the lack of comment on a new PDF file would indicate otherwise.
The lack of a PDF is unlikely to be a coincidence. I think the wide spread use of Rewards Cards has distorted the play experience of the modules themselves. The PC's in our group regularly turn 5 or so misses into hits every session. The one ti
However, if the mod writers increase the difficulty of the mods to compensate for the cards, what happens when a group plays without the cards? (I have never seen this, but it is technically possible).
I don't think any author is increasing difficulty for this reason. Generally you aim for a challenge and then playtest to make sure it is appropriate.
I recently had a group playtest my adventure. They didn't use reward cards, because that is their preference. It likely impacted playtest results to a decently significant extent. Not a deal breaker, but enough that I wish it had been run 'standard' so the results would be more meaningful in comparison to other playtests.
I agree that rewards cards distort play. And I think they are really not necessary in the game. I'm not sure what to do about it, though. The alternative I have proposed in the past is discounts. Discount new product, give coupons to reduce DDI subscription costs, etc. Those rewards contribute to future purchases, so they may not really reduce profit, while preventing a game effect. The other real fix I would love to see is a change to the bump in cards at each play tier. The number of cards at Paragon is obscene.
I don't think any author is increasing difficulty for this reason. Generally you aim for a challenge and then playtest to make sure it is appropriate.I recently had a group playtest my adventure. They didn't use reward cards, because that is their pr
When you have two cards, choosing one to be snap out of it is a real choice. When you have 5 or more? Yeah, I'll take two, why not. It's not like I need to worry that much about missing with my at-will, can only make so many saves against ongoing, get so many 19s on attacks, etc.
I like some cards more than others - like Scramble to Safety is less of an optimizing damage thing and more of a staying alive kinda thing. Cards that let you pass death saves, shift a square, reroll saves, that kinda thing would be a lot easier to balance around than blanket daze removal or more criticals.
And yeah, it's amazing how often a +1 helps.
When you have two cards, choosing one to be snap out of it is a real choice. When you have 5 or more? Yeah, I'll take two, why not. It's not like I need to worry that much about missing with my at-will, can only make so many saves against ongoing, ge
So how's the legality for these cards work, anyway?
I mean, I know there's a PDF you can download and that the password is fairly easy to find.
But that password was sent out via snailmail before most people I know even started playing. Most other cards are only available at certain conventions in physical paper form.
There can't be many people who were actually awarded Snap Out of It enough times to have five copies to take. So is the issue with "rewards cards abuse" not a mechanical problem so much as a blithe interpretation of their rules?
As they are now—at least in my local group—they're not really "rewards" so much as mechanical benefits that every player assumes they are entitled to. Perhaps that's what needs to change.
So how's the legality for these cards work, anyway?I mean, I know there's a PDF you can download and that the password is fairly easy to find.But that password was sent out via snailmail before most people I know even started playing. Most other card
Those that were awarded the cards received the password. They are allowed to print out multiple copies. It is their/our reward for playing during that timeframe.
Anyone can search for the password, but they are technically cheating. However, the hard line is indeed being blurred as you note. A friend of mine gives out copies for attending game days. I loan copies out when I DM new tables.
Anyone that prints out the newer reward cards (such as Furious Evocation or the Kenku card, for example, or those that were not in the pdf (Orc creation card, etc.)), is cheating unless they are just using it on a 1:1 basis to protect their card. (They have the real card, scanned it so the real one doesn't get scuffed up. I feel they should have the real card at the table in whatever 'vault' they desire.
The great thing about reward cards is that they are useful and they do have real value that interests gamers. They are certainly great con rewards. The pdf version is a bit more arguable in value.
The downside is that they really are strong enough to mess with the delicate balance/imbalance of 4E. Snap Out of It is famous because it renders useless a monster at low levels that has an encounter daze (and more than encounter would be really unusual). At high levels you end up with so many slots that you can take 2 or more of them, giving you full actions for 2 or more rounds, which is sufficient to survive a daze-heavy encounter.
Players that complain about how easy 4E are unlikely to voluntarily give up their cards, which is interesting. Yet, most players agree they make the game easier. It is an interesting dilemma!
Well, that would be cheating.Those that were awarded the cards received the password. They are allowed to print out multiple copies. It is their/our reward for playing during that timeframe. Anyone can search for the password, but they are technicall
So how's the legality for these cards work, anyway?
I mean, I know there's a PDF you can download and that the password is fairly easy to find.
But that password was sent out via snailmail before most people I know even started playing. Most other cards are only available at certain conventions in physical paper form.
There can't be many people who were actually awarded Snap Out of It enough times to have five copies to take. So is the issue with "rewards cards abuse" not a mechanical problem so much as a blithe interpretation of their rules?
As they are now—at least in my local group—they're not really "rewards" so much as mechanical benefits that every player assumes they are entitled to. Perhaps that's what needs to change.
It's not abuse if everybody has one so go ahead and print 6 copies of Snap Out of It to give to each member of your party or print 6 of every card in the PDF that's why the file is there. See there used to be this thing called The Player Reward Program where people had to sign up to get the cards in the mail or attend major cons but WOTC dumped that format and restructured the program. Now the cards are only given out at sanctioned cons and at the end of the year they're compiled in to a PDF for the masses unlucky enough to attend those conventions at least that's how it's supposed to work. So players now get nothing for belonging to the Rewards Program the real swag is in being a DM as they get all kinds neat perks like minis, special tiles, promo cards, and other really cool stuff hence the change of name to The DM Rewards Program. Let me make this clear once the cards are made availabe in the PDF then they are allowed to be given or printed out by who ever wants them. Any card not in the document that is brought to a table and is not an official Reward Card published in an officail capacity is CHEATING and may be viewed as theft.
It's not abuse if everybody has one so go ahead and print 6 copies of Snap Out of It to give to each member of your party or print 6 of every card in the PDF that's why the file is there. See there used to be this thing called The Player Rew
Those that were awarded the cards received the password. They are allowed to print out multiple copies.
Was this in the letter received with the original cards? If so, it makes players from that period significantly more powerful than players that started playing in the last year. If I'm in the mood to hardball, I'm tempted to require a physical copy of any duplicate card and any card not included in the original PDF.
Players that complain about how easy 4E are unlikely to voluntarily give up their cards, which is interesting. Yet, most players agree they make the game easier. It is an interesting dilemma!
No joke. Irony of ironies.
Was this in the letter received with the original cards? If so, it makes players from that period significantly more powerful than players that started playing in the last year. If I'm in the mood to hardball, I'm tempted to require a physical copy o
If I'm in the mood to hardball, I'm tempted to require a physical copy of any duplicate card and any card not included in the original PDF.
If it wasn't a card in the original PDF you are totally in the right to ask to see the real copy of it for each one they are trying to put in the stack, If a paragon player claims to have 5 lucky shots I'd ask to see 5 personally myself. If it was in the PDF, no such luck, a level 26 character can just have 9 tiny printouts of snap out of it and be within his right to use all 9, once made available in PDF form they are effectively available in unlimited supply to anyone and as a DM you have no way of confirming if they should have that mailing or not.
If it wasn't a card in the original PDF you are totally in the right to ask to see the real copy of it for each one they are trying to put in the stack, If a paragon player claims to have 5 lucky shots I'd ask to see 5 personally myself. If it was
I'm not sure if the posters in this thread are asking the right question.
*Can* we, as DMs, question whether or not people have obtained the printout of their Rewards Cards legitimately, or whether they should have, say, five Lucky Shot cards? Absolutely.
*Should* we? In the end, to what extent does playing Reward Card Police have an impact on the five to seven people at the table enjoying their game? Do we want to risk that enjoyment by taking time out of the adventure (especially in a timed event like a convention slot) to make sure everyone is following the rules regarding Reward Cards as precisely as possible?
I know what my answer to the second question is...
I'm not sure if the posters in this thread are asking the right question.*Can* we, as DMs, question whether or not people have obtained the printout of their Rewards Cards legitimately, or whether they should have, say, five Lucky Shot cards? Absolut
So how's the legality for these cards work, anyway?
Honestly? Nobody actually knows. Legality would be determined by rules, and there are none on the subject. At least, there are none in the CCG.
To be sure, people have inferred the existence of some unwritten rules: that printouts and copies of cards not yet released in PDF form are disallowed; that use of any PDF card without having received the password is illegal; that stacking multiple copies of the same card is illegal; that cards can be lent or borrowed; and several others.
Some of these unwritten rules make a lot of sense. Others would be impossible to enforce (how exactly am I supposed to know whether a player got the PDF password?) Many are of debatable utility. But none of them are written. I think it's rather reckless to make allegations of cheating when there's no written rule being broken.
Honestly? Nobody actually knows. Legality would be determined by rules, and there are none on the subject. At least, there are none in the CCG.To be sure, people have inferred the existence of some unwritten rules: that printouts and copies of
*Can* we, as DMs, question whether or not people have obtained the printout of their Rewards Cards legitimately, or whether they should have, say, five Lucky Shot cards? Absolutely.
I'm not sure even that much is true. I don't see many rewards cards and I'm not familiar with the contents of the rewards PDF. I wouldn't know, off the top of my head, whether a particular printout was from the PDF or not. I'm pretty confident that I'm not the only one in that position.
I'm not sure even that much is true. I don't see many rewards cards and I'm not familiar with the contents of the rewards PDF. I wouldn't know, off the top of my head, whether a particular printout was from the PDF or not. I'm pretty confident
*Can* we, as DMs, question whether or not people have obtained the printout of their Rewards Cards legitimately, or whether they should have, say, five Lucky Shot cards? Absolutely.
I'm not sure even that much is true. I don't see many rewards cards and I'm not familiar with the contents of the rewards PDF. I wouldn't know, off the top of my head, whether a particular printout was from the PDF or not. I'm pretty confident that I'm not the only one in that position.
Note the phrasing I used. We can question whatever we want. I made no allegations as to an enforcement mechanism, or even whether the questioner would be right to do so.
I'm not sure even that much is true. I don't see many rewards cards and I'm not familiar with the contents of the rewards PDF. I wouldn't know, off the top of my head, whether a particular printout was from the PDF or not. I'm pretty confident
Those that were awarded the cards received the password. They are allowed to print out multiple copies. It is their/our reward for playing during that timeframe.
Anyone can search for the password, but they are technically cheating. However, the hard line is indeed being blurred as you note. A friend of mine gives out copies for attending game days. I loan copies out when I DM new tables.
Hmmm. Becasue the PDFs were givin' out for a now defunct player rewards program they should be forever out of the reach of new players? I do not agree with this.
NOTE: In the interest of full disclosure I am Teos' friend that "gives" out reward cards at my gameday. I also earned those cards/PDF for my work as player/judge/organizer.
I think there are few distinct questions here:
A) Should we have reward cards. B) Should they only available to those who "earn" them. C) Should we regulate how many of a single card may be used in a stack.
As to questions A and B I think yes and no respectively.
I think that reward cards are part of the waft and weave of the game (since the LG, Green Regent, and Ebberon campaigns) and to suddenly say nope, you can't use them is not really an option.
I am fine with those folks that earn the cards by judging and playing at special events get them before everyone else. But the idea that only those folks should have them takes a balance issue and now explodes it into a haves and have nots issue as well.
That brings me to C. If there is a fundamental problem with someone playing 2, 3, 4, or 5 of the same reward card in their stack and it is destroying game balance and worse yet, the fun, then reglulate that. I have no problem with restricting card stacks and saying there can be no duplicates.
Anyone that prints out the newer reward cards (such as Furious Evocation or the Kenku card, for example, or those that were not in the pdf (Orc creation card, etc.)), is cheating unless they are just using it on a 1:1 basis to protect their card. (They have the real card, scanned it so the real one doesn't get scuffed up. I feel they should have the real card at the table in whatever 'vault' they desire.
I do not disagree with this at all, that is however, until a card is in a publicly available, official PDF.
The great thing about reward cards is that they are useful and they do have real value that interests gamers. They are certainly great con rewards. The PDF version is a bit more arguable in value.
This brings me to my case. I give them out at my gameday. I spend my own money to print them on good, thick cardstock and in color. They are printed on both sides (the back is branded with my gameday and the store where we hold our events).
For new players I give them the Zhentarim Quest, That'll Do, and one other card of their choice.
After that, they will get one card per gameday they attend (their choice).
I also have done that same at a Con I recently organized at the last moment.
To me this is just good sense. If I had a big stack of them from going to cons, I would be giving them out as well.
Now, I have never given out the passwords. Or my special mass production PDFs that I created so I could make a batch without wasting paper.
I think that folks still need to come out and participate to get them. I see them as incentive for folks to try my gameday. They are also good advertising when I give them out at con.
My two coppers,
Bryan Blumklotz AKA Saracenus
Hmmm. Becasue the PDFs were givin' out for a now defunct player rewards program they should be forever out of the reach of new players? I do not agree with this.NOTE: In the interest of full disclosure I am Teos' friend that "gives" out reward cards
A) Should we have reward cards. B) Should they only available to those who "earn" them. C) Should we regulate how many of a single card may be used in a stack.
As to questions A and B I think yes and no respectively.
In that case they cease to be rewards and become just "cards". If everyone has them, they aren't rewards. They become some weird LFR artifact, where we are saying that LFR needs these cards to entice players to play. In that case, the pdf should not be password protected. But, it is. And it was clear back then that the cards were earned.
In LG, you also earned and were rewarded cards. When my wife and I had a child, I stopped playing for a bit. When the next rewards mailing came out, I had no cards. I was fine with that, even if it included the re-roll for the save card. I didn't earn them and for a good reason. I didn't go out and photocopy a friend's, or color print them, or e-bay them (though I could have). I just dealt with the reality of it. No reward earned, done.
I like what you are doing with the gameday, particularly because reward cards do make the game fun for new players. You hit more often, the cards cancel out being new and inefficient/inexperienced, etc. No worries. As players reach higher levels, however, the cards become less necessary and more of a mechanical imbalance.
The issue with more than one in a stack is not the whole issue. Lots of Lucky Strikes for critting and lots of Snaps Out of It to cancel daze powers are a serious effect, but so are the +2s for the card that lets you run (easy to use, often just to get a +2 out there), the skill re-roll, etc. It's the whole package. Again, it is funny how we lust after the next card but bemoan LFR not being more consistently challenging (especially at higher levels).
If I had my way, I would change all rewards to be non-game effects outside of creation cards. I think cards for different regions, races, etc. are cool. Rewards would be incentives for buying product, such as new minis, alt paint minis (imagine getting alt paint PC minis... way cool!), templates, discounts on the next book, etc.
If we had to use reward cards, I would want them to be a different type of effect. First, no +2 and probably no +1. Instead, grant minor effects that would be too weak to be an actual utility power but cool enough to be fun. Emphasis on fun vs. mechanical benefit. For example, a card that increases your move by one. Maybe a card that lets you do something under "things the rules don't cover" in the DMG, such as swinging on a chandelier. Snap Out of It could be something that delays daze for a round - now the card lets a warlock get their curse out and a warrior mark, but the daze kicks in next round. It becomes a tactical card rather than a deny the monster/encounter card. Instead of re-rolls, maybe get a bonus to your next attack when you miss, thus again adding a tactical angle but keeping things fun. The concept being to not mess up the 4E balance.
In that case they cease to be rewards and become just "cards". If everyone has them, they aren't rewards. They become some weird LFR artifact, where we are saying that LFR needs these cards to entice players to play. In that case, the pdf should not
In that case they cease to be rewards and become just "cards". If everyone has them, they aren't rewards. They become some weird LFR artifact, where we are saying that LFR needs these cards to entice players to play.
Which is pretty much what we have.
I now regularly see not only DMs letting players use cards they don't actually have (the card being written down on an index card or power card), but using cards that don't actually exist (at-will reroll for psionic classes).
The mass mailing of the 2008 Rewards cards created the idea that the only reward was that some people would get earlier access to the cards. The announcement that there would be semiannual mailings of the cards in 2009 and subsequent failure to follow up (either with a mailing or any communication whatsoever) then led to quite a number of players deciding that, hey, they'd help WOTC out by reproducing the cards themselves.
As a theoretical exercise, we can certainly discuss the idea of a campaign where the 2008 cards are limited in some way according to whether or not you actually received the Rewards mailing, but that's not the campaign we have, and I would not expect that trying to turn back the clock on this campaign would work that well.
Yes, you're right. I don't understand the entire point of the Rewards card system. I don't know what it's trying to accomplish, but whatever it is, I'm quite skeptical of it doing so.
The cards are no longer rewards, but now largely seen as entitlements.
Which is pretty much what we have.I now regularly see not only DMs letting players use cards they don't actually have (the card being written down on an index card or power card), but using cards that don't actually exist (at-will reroll for psionic
In that case they cease to be rewards and become just "cards". If everyone has them, they aren't rewards. They become some weird LFR artifact, where we are saying that LFR needs these cards to entice players to play.
Which is pretty much what we have.
Exactly. For a limited "rewards" system, it's hard to do better than the previous setup, where players were mailed cards based on their campaign participation. The number in circulation was high enough that people had neat swag for cool tricks, but low enough that things weren't ridiculous. Most of all, there were no printouts or photocopies being used as cards.
Then WotC apparently decided that was too much work (even though Magic Player Rewards are humming along just fine, with the exact same model and a much larger player base, but I digress) so they were replaced with the "budget cut" version.
Whoever conceived of the PDF obviously intended to limit its circulation, but the fact that it's a printout really opened the floodgates. ("Really? All I have to do is print this file and I can have any card I want? I'll take five!") That, coupled with virtually non-existent guidelines on the subject and a rather weak mechanism (a single password, mailed to most everybody? really?) to limit distribution has rendered the limitations practically nonexistant.
I think that curtailing the ubiquity of rewards cards is a fine idea. I just don't believe it's possible with the current system.
Which is pretty much what we have.Exactly. For a limited "rewards" system, it's hard to do better than the previous setup, where players were mailed cards based on their campaign participation. The number in circulation was high enough that peopl
Give people more treasure for not using cards. That'll solve that problem quick.
That worked very well for the ADCP1-1 Jungle Hunt mod. Players were cringing at using cards.
You're right, and that adventure was a lot more fun for it. My group won ADCP1-1 at the con I attended, and there was a palpable tension when one player reached for his card and the rest of the group yelled, "no, no!"
That gives the action (using a card) a consequence. This, in general, makes more interesting decisions and more fun games.
Perhaps rather than giving out more loot (as LFR is already pretty powerful) there is a Gold or XP cost to the group for each card used. In the face of a TPK, you would still use every resource you have available. But if you want to PWNZ0R the mod, your cards will get dusty.
That worked very well for the ADCP1-1 Jungle Hunt mod. Players were cringing at using cards.You're right, and that adventure was a lot more fun for it. My group won ADCP1-1 at the con I attended, and there was a palpable tension when one player reach
early in LFR we had a local conventions where a number of new players complained about not having ANY cards. Only people who had played LG (and had play points) had any.
It was the first sign of a clear demarkation between the "haves" and "have-nots". This was a huge frustration to new players in LG, the difference between the "haves" and "have-nots". With the definition of "have" being access to items, character builds (classes, feats, spells, prestige classes), special favors, powers, and rewards cards only obtainable by living in a certain region, playing a certain adventure, being in the campaign for X years, or having a rewards mailing actually get mailed to you correctly.
And the rewards card issue was by-passable simply by reporting a bunch of phony games or going on ebay. People would travel to certain regions to play certain adventures (or to play a core special).
And then 80% of the player base would feel at a huge disadvantage because they couldn't afford to travel, play the right game at the right convention, couldn't make it to the battle interactive 300 miles away, or WOTC couldn't mail their rewards cards to the correct address.
For LFR, the campaign attitude seems to be to limit the difference between "haves" and "have-nots". We all get to play the same adventures (some a little sooner than others). We all have access to the same build options and magic items (minus those handful of creation cards).
I really want to see all players eventually get access to all the cards (or at least most of them). In LFR, we get those cards - the reality is anyone that wants them can get them (borrow from someone else or go on ebay), and we shouldn't be "rewarding" people for using ebay or having better friends than others. We can't control who really has the cards, so why really try?
The rewards cards are a little something extra in LFR. Are they over-powering? Certainly some of them are. but I've seen a growing trend in LFR (like in LG) where adventures "play to the cards". Encounters with multiple auto-daze attacks (with no save), so you're only real defense is a "snap out of it". Monsters with stupid high defenses (elite high level soldiers) begging for re-roll cards. This weekend I ran into my first encounter with auto-surprise with monsters readying actions outside of combat (Where's my FEIGN SURPRISE?!?!?!?). It brought back bad memories of LG where writers would put in encounters with automatic-surprise, assuming players would have a "feign surprise". And players kept them because they knew authors would DO that.
My thoughts: let people use whatever they want. I don't want to see a new player turned off to the game because he/she doesn't get the same toys everyone else does. I prefer a level playing field.
early in LFR we had a local conventions where a number of new players complained about not having ANY cards. Only people who had played LG (and had play points) had any. It was the first sign of a clear demarkation between the "haves" and "have-n
Going to bring this back on topic. I will start a new post on the cards themselves.
We have a week left before Wizards breaks for a holiday week. Anyone know if they are going to post the new rewards cards before the break?
There are two ways to get the cards in my part of California. The first is to run at least three events at a local con. The second is to buy them off e-bay.
Going to bring this back on topic. I will start a new post on the cards themselves.We have a week left before Wizards breaks for a holiday week. Anyone know if they are going to post the new rewards cards before the break? There are two ways to get t
Personally, I'd love to have a copy of the "In Slumber Remain" quest card.
Unfortunately, at the moment the 2010 quest adventure seems to have a hidden pre-requisite of "must live in the continental US or be willing to buy a card on E-Bay."
Personally, I'd love to have a copy of the "In Slumber Remain" quest card.Unfortunately, at the moment the 2010 quest adventure seems to have a hidden pre-requisite of "must live in the continental US or be willing to buy a card on E-Bay."
Comment rescinded; just realized that it only applies to people living in the continental US, and the poster either does not live there or is complaining on behalf of people who don't live there.
I no longer understand the frustration regarding purchasing cards on eBay. When the cards were going for $50-80 bucks a pop, sure. That's a lot of money for a minor reward. Now, you can buy them on eBay for 5 bucks with free shipping. That's not a te
Going to bring this back on topic. I will start a new post on the cards themselves.
We have a week left before Wizards breaks for a holiday week. Anyone know if they are going to post the new rewards cards before the break?
There are two ways to get the cards in my part of California. The first is to run at least three events at a local con. The second is to buy them off e-bay.
Give people more treasure for not using cards. That'll solve that problem quick.
That worked very well for the ADCP1-1 Jungle Hunt mod. Players were cringing at using cards.
You're right, and that adventure was a lot more fun for it. My group won ADCP1-1 at the con I attended, and there was a palpable tension when one player reached for his card and the rest of the group yelled, "no, no!"
That gives the action (using a card) a consequence. This, in general, makes more interesting decisions and more fun games.
Perhaps rather than giving out more loot (as LFR is already pretty powerful) there is a Gold or XP cost to the group for each card used. In the face of a TPK, you would still use every resource you have available. But if you want to PWNZ0R the mod, your cards will get dusty.
Was that adventure a lot more fun for the player who was reaching for his card and got shouted at? I was playing ADCP 1-1 at GenCon, and I used one card (That'll Do, if I remember correctly) so that I could turn a failure on an Athletics check into a success. I had some of the players giving me a hard time for it (even though, at the end, it turned out that it was a minuscule difference in score, and some cards might have even been net positive).
Making a change that using a card results in penalties of gold or xp will be very hard to do in a way that only affects the players using the cards. (Of course, some players want xp penalties to get a better gold-to-xp ratio, but that's a separate issue). If one player's actions affect the entire table, it starts causing real-world arguments, which are worse than making a module too easy.
As background for my comments, when I play, I usually don't use cards. The cards I do use are the expansion cards, quest cards, and the occasional That'll Do or "reroll an at-will". I also have one card that I was given by a player as a reward for DMing (Scramble to Safety) that I put in my stack and usually forget to use.
That worked very well for the ADCP1-1 Jungle Hunt mod. Players were cringing at using cards.You're right, and that adventure was a lot more fun for it. My group won ADCP1-1 at the con I attended, and there was a palpable tension when one player reach
I wonder if any GM slots from GenCon will show up in the future as well. I know last year or should I say 2008 took a while to post. I wonder if with the new system they will simply forgo even adding 2009 slots to the point totals. Not like it will make a difference I expect to see GenCon 2010 before I see the ones that still show shipped in June of last year.
Maybe they should simply just post them all on the wizards site for everyone I could care less if everyone had them even if I had to GM to get them myself it would likley take a lot less work and cost than a mailing, although I do so enjoy seeing mail with a return address of WotC.
I wonder if any GM slots from GenCon will show up in the future as well. I know last year or should I say 2008 took a while to post. I wonder if with the new system they will simply forgo even adding 2009 slots to the point totals. Not like
To bring this (marginally?) back on-topic, I had the chance to talk to Chris last week.
He's aware of the lack of a new Rewards Cards PDF - and it's on his list of things to do, though other internal WotC priorities had to come first. Con Season also set him back a good bit.
So, it hasn't been forgotten.
That was last September and the only other update was the twitter post. Any news on a date the cards will actually be available?
That was last September and the only other update was the twitter post. Any news on a date the cards will actually be available?
To bring this (marginally?) back on-topic, I had the chance to talk to Chris last week.
He's aware of the lack of a new Rewards Cards PDF - and it's on his list of things to do, though other internal WotC priorities had to come first. Con Season also set him back a good bit.
So, it hasn't been forgotten.
That was last September and the only other update was the twitter post. Any news on a date the cards will actually be available?
Given that the CCG is now late, and the layoffs at WOTC in December, I'm thinking that player rewards is fairly far down on their list of priorities.
If I had to make a prediction - Smarch 13th.
That was last September and the only other update was the twitter post. Any news on a date the cards will actually be available?Given that the CCG is now late, and the layoffs at WOTC in December, I'm thinking that player rewards is fairly far down o
And when will Warforged be released for play? And will they be LFR legal?
"In the Halloween episode "Treehouse of Horror VI", the thirteenth month is Smarch. Smarch was, according to Marge Simpson, just a misprinted word on a calendar. Homer, however, didn't realize this and cursed the "lousy Smarch weather."
During the same episode, Groundskeeper Willie was allowed to burn to death by the Springfield PTA on Smarch 13th at 1:00 p.m., the thirteenth hour of the thirteenth day of the thirteenth month."
No. Warforged will not be LFR legal then, but there will probably be a rewards card in a subsequent download to cover their creation.
"In the episode "", the thirteenth month is Smarch. Smarch was, according to , just a misprinted word on a calendar. , however, didn't realize this and cursed the "lousy Smarch weather."During the same episode, was allowed to burn to death by the S
I think every race should be allowed to convert to Warforged once they become legal. And, we should get double the reward cards for waiting so long. Also, a free pet rust monster.
(Looks over his list of grievances, finds none remaining, smiles.)
I think every race should be allowed to convert to Warforged once they become legal. And, we should get double the reward cards for waiting so long. Also, a free pet rust monster.(Looks over his list of grievances, finds none remaining, smiles.) :rof
So what exactly happens when a fiendish dire rust monster of legend meets a warforged?
You get a quantity of pciduum, depending on the level of the PC. If there's someone in the party with the Create Player Character ritual, you can then turn that pciduum into a new hybrid PC.
You get a quantity of pciduum, depending on the level of the PC. If there's someone in the party with the Create Player Character ritual, you can then turn that pciduum into a new hybrid PC.
Just to put this thread back on its original subject for a moment...WolfStar posted in the RPGA General forum that he's heard from Chris Tulach, and that the 2009 PDF should be available very soon:
Note too that there are a few cards that are not part of either compiled PDF:
Orc Adventurer
Spellscarred: Flamespeed
Spellscarred: Sight of the Unseen
Bummer, because the only monster race I'm interested in in Orc.
The gnome and shadar-kai cards aren't in the compiled PDF either, but they've been obsoleted by new rules.
Note too that there are a few cards that are not part of either compiled PDF: Orc Adventurer Spellscarred: Flamespeed Spellscarred: Sight of the Unseen Bummer, because the only monster race I'm interested in in Orc. The gnome and shadar-kai cards ar
My goal is to get the link on the downloads page fixed.
The link on the RPGA Downloads page () is the one that's broken.The one I posted here works. My goal is to get the link on the downloads page fixed. :)
Just because I would hate to give you the time you need to go find bacon , could you check and see if the password will be removed from the older file?
Thanks, WolfStar!Just because I would hate to give you the time you need to go find bacon , could you check and see if the password will be removed from the older file?
Just because I would hate to give you the time you need to go find bacon , could you check and see if the password will be removed from the older file?
I'll save that as an "Ask Chris" at DDXP. Probably at the Member's Meeting.
. . . which reminds me. . . I should start a "Member's Meeting thread" and prepare to Live Blog that again.
Excellent, now I can run a card to get the rituals I want for some of my characters.
And thanks Wolfstar you can have bacon, even though it isn't Tuesday.
BaconTHURSDAY. Don't confuse it.
I'll save that as an "Ask Chris" at DDXP. Probably at the Member's Meeting.. . . which reminds me. . . I should start a "Member's Meeting thread" and prepare to Live Blog that again.BaconTHURSDAY. Don't confuse it. ;)
Just because I would hate to give you the time you need to go find bacon , could you check and see if the password will be removed from the older file?
I'll save that as an "Ask Chris" at DDXP. Probably at the Member's Meeting.
. . . which reminds me. . . I should start a "Member's Meeting thread" and prepare to Live Blog that again.
Excellent, now I can run a card to get the rituals I want for some of my characters.
And thanks Wolfstar you can have bacon, even though it isn't Tuesday.
BaconTHURSDAY. Don't confuse it.
Oh boy, bacon That's not bacon
I'll save that as an "Ask Chris" at DDXP. Probably at the Member's Meeting.. . . which reminds me. . . I should start a "Member's Meeting thread" and prepare to Live Blog that again.BaconTHURSDAY. Don't confuse it. ;)Oh boy, bacon :yuck:That's
, could you check and see if the password will be removed from the older file?
