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Sep 2, 2009 -- 12:50AM, Bigfluffylemon wrote:

The rules are fairly clear on weapons-as-implements. You get to use the weapon's enhancement bonus and critical dice on your implement powers, but not its powers (I think this comes from the PHB2, and doesn't make a great deal of sense).

Unfortunately, the question: 'can I use a magic quarterstaff as a staff implement?' is one that has been going around and around on the boards for a long time, and WoTC seem unwilling to commit to stating a firm position on it. The problem stems from the fact that in the staff implement section, it says 'treat as a quarterstaff for the purposes of melee attacks' (or words to that effect).

The rules for implements in general are a bit messy. The rules for weapons-as-implements are downright screwed up. The whole area needs a massive rewrite in my opinion. But that's unlikely to happen.

The rules on this have never actually been clear.

The RAW answer that is often contradicted is that Properties and Powers are defined on the magic item level. As long as you are using it as a Magic Item its Properties always function and its Powers are usable as often as their definitions allow. This is the General Rule to which there is not and has never been a stated Specific rule to override it.

However, the FAQ has an answer based on the old PHB 1 which has never been updated. Someone asked what benefits you gain from using a weapon as an implement, such as a Pact Blade or Holy Avenger. The answer came back as being Property, Enhancement, and Critical. Enhancement and Critical are called out in the books (both PHB 1 & 2). Proficiency is the only weapon trait ever explicitly denied in any rule in all of 4e. If the FAQ ruling is taken as a rule (capable of overriding the printed rulebooks for some reason) and as being an exclusive list, presumably it means you can't use the Special clause when using a weapon as an implement, such as "Special: You can use this weapon as an implement for powers." Also a number of PHB2 daggers have powers that cannot possibly be used (as they only work with sorcerer attack powers, which are never weapon powers) and some of the original songblades have powers that only work with 2 bard powers (as they work with bard powers with the thunder keyword, almost all of which are implement powers). (I tried looking them up in compendium but it appears all the PHB2 weapons have had thier powers removed. Joy.)

The answer seems pretty clear to me that Properties and Powers work on Magic Items regardless of whether those items are used as Implements or Weapons. But I also know that this debate has been on going among the devs, and as of yet I have not seen any final answer come up to clear up the debate. So I must unfortunately advise you to Expect Table Variation.

Sep 2, 2009 -- 11:40AM, Istaran wrote:

The answer seems pretty clear to me that Properties and Powers work on Magic Items regardless of whether those items are used as Implements or Weapons. But I also know that this debate has been on going among the devs, and as of yet I have not seen any final answer come up to clear up the debate. So I must unfortunately advise you to Expect Table Variation.

Thanks for your detailed response. It pretty much is what I got from customer service, except it seems clear to me that powers don't necessarily work. For example, the Lightning Weapon chosen as a staff would not allow me to use its powers when I use my druid evocations, but a regular magic quarterstaff is just fine.

Works for me. Now I have a +2 staff I can use right away, instead of a +2 Elven cloak I can't use for another level. I'll just print out the email from customer service and keep it with my character.

Sep 2, 2009 -- 12:11PM, bgibbons wrote:

The CustServ answer (which is now a rules source for the campaign) is that a weapon's powers can be used when it is being used as an implement.  So, for example, a sorcerer using a +1 frost dagger could make all of the damage from his spell cold and could use the dagger's daily power in conjunction with a spell.

Wow, thanks. Sorry for not catching that one earlier. So that means I CAN use the powers of a lightning weapon if I choose one as a staff.

That makes me wonder why the PHB FAQ doesn't list Powers. It just says Enhancement, Critical and Property.

In any case I will add my customer service response to the thread you linked.

Sep 2, 2009 -- 12:11PM, bgibbons wrote:

The CustServ answer (which is now a rules source for the campaign) is that a weapon's powers can be used when it is being used as an implement.  So, for example, a sorcerer using a +1 frost dagger could make all of the damage from his spell cold and could use the dagger's daily power in conjunction with a spell.

 

I'm not sure where you get that from.  They said nothing of the sort.  They said there were special rules regarding theuse of weapons as implements and points to the FAQ which clearly states that only Enhancement, critical, and Properties affect implement powers used through a weapon.

Turning damage to cold and the daily power are all powers and not Property, Enhancement, or Critical.