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Switch to Forum Live View Why do Judge's hate Warlocks?
4 years ago  ::  Apr 29, 2009 - 10:53PM #21
Theziner
Date Joined: Jun 8, 2008
Posts: 637
Why should I be forced to take a feat when its situational at best for my character who is already feat starved. I can see this feat being great for a home game where there are two warlocks in the party, but I encounter another warlock about once in 4-5 games. (The mod I played had 3 infernalocks including myself lol) Only one time did the judge rule that curse damage was applied for anyone's curse.

Frankly I'm kind of fed up with being nerfed. I've had 3 items nerfed on my character. I've had judges rule that I needed to end up at least 3 squares away for my shadow walk to trigger ( i couldn't walk 3 squares back then walk two squares forward and get my concealment) on top of this curse bull. Is it so complicated that they can't open the book and read the Warlock entry? I'm frustrated about ambiguous rules and every other striker (which is 3/4 of most lfr groups) out damaging me. As an infernalock, the control side which is supposed to compensate for my damage is sadly lacking.

Don't get me wrong. I love my character. It is probably twice as fun as those boring archer rangers or two weapon fighters, but the warlock seems to get the shaft in more ways that one. It seems the symbolic Warlock Rod is actually the short end of the stick.

Theziner
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4 years ago  ::  Apr 29, 2009 - 11:35PM #22
JohnLynch
Date Joined: Mar 26, 2008
Posts: 2,962

Theziner wrote:

Why should I be forced to take a feat when its situational at best for my character


You don't have to. If you prefer to take other feats and have DMs apply different rulings to your character, go for it. If you want to be able to have consistent rulings applied to your character then you're going to have to take the feat until such time as WotC makes it clear which ruling is the correct one.

Theziner wrote:

Frankly I'm kind of fed up with being nerfed. I've had 3 items nerfed on my character. I've had judges rule that I needed to end up at least 3 squares away for my shadow walk to trigger ( i couldn't walk 3 squares back then walk two squares forward and get my concealment) on top of this curse bull. Is it so complicated that they can't open the book and read the Warlock entry?


If its such a problem for you, take a different class. Because your inpreterpation that you can walk away 3 squares and then walk back 2 and still have Shadow Walk, while technically correct, isn't how I would rule it.

If ever you had me as your DM I wouldn't let you do it (unless someone could show me a Wizards source saying that's how they intended for it to work). Such is life when you are in a living campaign. You could of course report me for not interpreting the rules as written but instead using common sense in applying rules. And I'd have no way to stop you. If WotC thought it important enough they could revoke my DMing privileges. Although frankly I'd prefer they say outright how its suppose to work.

As a player I am very careful when relying on anything that isn't black and white.

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4 years ago  ::  Apr 30, 2009 - 2:36AM #23
Bigfluffylemon
Date Joined: Nov 10, 2003
Posts: 719

JohnLynch wrote:

If its such a problem for you, take a different class. Because your inpreterpation that you can walk away 3 squares and then walk back 2 and still have Shadow Walk, while technically correct, isn't how I would rule it.


This you are 'interpreting' wrong, and RAW are actually clear, for once. The rule states you need to move three squares. It says nothing about needing to end three squares away from your starting position to benefit.

Imagine this setup: W--E W=Warlock - = empty space E = enemy. If the warlock moves two squares forward and one square back, would you take the opportunity attack? Of course you would. So you'd give the warlock the penalty of moving through that square, but not the benefit?

A more understandably debatable point is whether or not you can benefit from shadow walk if you teleport. I'd say yes, but I play a feylock, so I may be a little biased on that point. I can see the argument both ways, and would (grudgingly) accept if that ruling went against me.

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4 years ago  ::  Apr 30, 2009 - 3:20AM #24
JohnLynch
Date Joined: Mar 26, 2008
Posts: 2,962

Bigfluffylemon wrote:

This you are 'interpreting' wrong, and RAW are actually clear, for once. The rule states you need to move three squares. It says nothing about needing to end three squares away from your starting position to benefit.


What's the point to requiring the movement be 3 squares away from the originating square, if you're just going to let the person move back to the original square? I've never come across this interpretation before. Every time I've seen a Warlock they always assume they have to end their turn 3 squares away.

Bigfluffylemon wrote:

Imagine this setup: W--E W=Warlock - = empty space E = enemy. If the warlock moves two squares forward and one square back, would you take the opportunity attack? Of course you would. So you'd give the warlock the penalty of moving through that square, but not the benefit?


Are you saying Warlocks only have to move 3 squares in total? The feature clearly says

if you move at least 3 squares away from where you started your turn


. So you're hypothetical of moving forward 2 squares and then back 1 square seems to be against the rules regardless.

[EDIT]: Looking on the forums I'll admit that everyone here seems to take it for granted that Shadow Walk activates after you've moved 3 squares away from the original square, so I'll let them walk back to their original square. But I won't be telling my local Warlocks about this.

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4 years ago  ::  Apr 30, 2009 - 4:24AM #25
Bigfluffylemon
Date Joined: Nov 10, 2003
Posts: 719
I think we agree on that, then.

So, back to multiple cursed targets...
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4 years ago  ::  Apr 30, 2009 - 10:33AM #26
KarmaInferno
Date Joined: Mar 29, 2001
Posts: 736
I have had players that pull the "drag the NPC back and forth through the damaging area" between the same two squares.

The rules often don't forbid it.

I will, however, make it strongly known that I find it cheesetastic and if they wanna pull rules cheese then I as the judge will feel no guilt about doing the same back.

I don't alter the rules. Why would I when there's so many ways to mess with the players entirely within the rules?

:D



-karma
LFR Characters:
Lady Tiana Elinden Kobori Silverwane - Drow Control Wizard
Kro'tak Warscream - Orc Bard
Fulcrum of Gond - Warforged Laser Cleric
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4 years ago  ::  Apr 30, 2009 - 12:15PM #27
Dragon9
  • Volunteer Community Lead
Date Joined: Jul 16, 2002
Posts: 4,997

KarmaInferno wrote:

I have had players that pull the "drag the NPC back and forth through the damaging area" between the same two squares.

The rules often don't forbid it.


Well, that's the whole point of a damaging zone. In SToS we have had a lot of fun with the Druid's Fire Seed doing that. Oh, you want to move out of the zone? Boom, pushed right back in!

Now if it's 2 squares within the zone, then no, that wouldn't work since you have to move into the zone or start your turn there (typically, although i haven't seen a zone that didn't say that).

Sorry WOTC, you lost me with Essentials.  So where I used to buy every book that came out, now I will be very choosy about what I buy.  Can we just get back to real 4e?

Check out the 4e Conversion Wiki.

1. Wizards fight dirty.  They hit their enemies in the NADs. -- Dragon9
2. A barbarian hits people with his axe.  A warlord hits people with his barbarian.
3. Boo-freakin'-hoo, ya light-slingin' finger-wigglers. -- MrCelcius in response to the Cleric's Healer's Lore nerf
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4 years ago  ::  May 01, 2009 - 11:20AM #28
Lilinthra
Date Joined: Jan 15, 2004
Posts: 65

JohnLynch wrote:

What's the point to requiring the movement be 3 squares away from the originating square, if you're just going to let the person move back to the original square?


Renewed Stealth check rolls, if the warlock was already in Stealth. Barring other powers/abilities, of course.

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4 years ago  ::  May 01, 2009 - 5:17PM #29
Alphastream1
  • Dragon Slayer
  • If only he would apply himself
  • Dammit Jim, this is Star Trek, not D&D!
Date Joined: Jan 31, 2006
Posts: 4,619
I think the warlock is just too plain different for some DMs. You can do less damage than a defender, but the way you cause the damage causes the DM to question the mechanics. You are spike-prone and have some horrible-sounding effects and powers, all of which draw attention. Meanwhile, the ranger is dealing insane damage with their At-Will, round after round, without question.

The warlock is still fun. Each pact and their powers bring awesome power concepts and boon concepts. They take terrific strategy to be successful, making them a complex tactical class that can be a fun challenge for an advanced player. And, they can be really strong, dealing some really strong dmg/effects in spikes.

But, as another wise poster said, it is best to clear the questionable stuff with the party and DM beforehand. Figure out if you will deal damage to a target cursed by another warlock. Figure out if everyone is cool with clearing minions. Figure out if some PCs want to be dealt damage with powers. If not, switch PCs. A good strategy is to keep your warlock in the same level band as another PC. Try to play the warlock, and if the table isn't friendly to warlocks, swap it out for the other PC.
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4 years ago  ::  May 01, 2009 - 9:20PM #30
Dragon9
  • Volunteer Community Lead
Date Joined: Jul 16, 2002
Posts: 4,997
I have seen people complain about Druids power level also. I usually chalk it up to a player not "getting it." I have seen some extremely effective Warlocks in the hands of smart players. I have seen Warlocks that were "just there." I have seen very effective Druids too. Then again, i also chalk the Druid thing up to players who were too used to the inasanity that was the 3e Druid. :P
Sorry WOTC, you lost me with Essentials.  So where I used to buy every book that came out, now I will be very choosy about what I buy.  Can we just get back to real 4e?

Check out the 4e Conversion Wiki.

1. Wizards fight dirty.  They hit their enemies in the NADs. -- Dragon9
2. A barbarian hits people with his axe.  A warlord hits people with his barbarian.
3. Boo-freakin'-hoo, ya light-slingin' finger-wigglers. -- MrCelcius in response to the Cleric's Healer's Lore nerf
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