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RPGA Living Forgotten R.. Solo Encounters - Good/Bad for LFR mods?
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4 years ago  ::  Aug 12, 2009 - 4:47PM #11
Gristooth
Date Joined: Oct 28, 2003
Posts: 241
Solos I've seen in LFR were only able to take one or two actions + APs at most a round, which when compared to a party taking 4-6 actions +APs puts them at a severe disadvantage in the action count. Solos really should be encounted with other supporting creatures that can divide a party's actions.
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4 years ago  ::  Aug 14, 2009 - 4:24PM #12
KarmaInferno
Date Joined: Mar 29, 2001
Posts: 736
Solos should never be 'solo', despite the name.

Most of them can be trivialized, if alone, by a competent controller.

I've brought up before what should have been a deadly fight with a Beholder. With a wizard present, the party mostly ignored the Beholder due to it being locked down, and was able to concentrate on the other monsters. The poor beastie actually died from stacked ongoing damage before the party got around to facing it.

The fight was interesting due to there BEING other monsters - if it had just been the Beholder it would have been a mere boring speedbump of a fight.


-np
LFR Characters:
Lady Tiana Elinden Kobori Silverwane - Drow Control Wizard
Kro'tak Warscream - Orc Bard
Fulcrum of Gond - Warforged Laser Cleric
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4 years ago  ::  Aug 15, 2009 - 12:50PM #13
Vamroc
Date Joined: Feb 6, 2006
Posts: 790

KarmaInferno wrote:

Solos should never be 'solo', despite the name.

Most of them can be trivialized, if alone, by a competent controller.

I've brought up before what should have been a deadly fight with a Beholder. With a wizard present, the party mostly ignored the Beholder due to it being locked down, and was able to concentrate on the other monsters. The poor beastie actually died from stacked ongoing damage before the party got around to facing it.

The fight was interesting due to there BEING other monsters - if it had just been the Beholder it would have been a mere boring speedbump of a fight.


-np


Yeah I've played that mod the Beholder was annoying because it was hard to pin down but in the instances when that did happen we ripped it apart. Even though we had other enemies in the room taking that thing down first was still our primary objective. Once the Beholder went down we mopped the rest in short order. It was actually pretty funny because the Beholder sort of did us a favor it immoblized my Paladin then moved so it provoked and because it's AoE didn't include my charactor it triggered my Divine Challenge. After the battle we dragged it out of the mine and thought about keeping the corpse to mount on a couple of Tensors Floating Disks can you imagine the intimidation bonus if people think there is an undead Beholder floating next to the party HAHAHAHAHAHA.

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4 years ago  ::  Aug 16, 2009 - 8:54PM #14
Cpttylorx
Date Joined: Feb 10, 2008
Posts: 226
Solo monsters haven't really been fixed, a true solo needs to have multiple immediate interrupts, with the base line ability to negate daze, stun, and criticals on an 11-20 when they happen. That will fix up the current system in play and allow solo monsters to be solo monsters. That along with the system in place in MM2 should rebalance the current sway of power that this game is steadily ramping to.
(PC's doing 260+ damage in a round in paragon tier due to crits is simply unacceptable without a way to control how a monster can receive critical's.)
I'm fine with the potential for damage to be there, but the only way to counter paragon and very soon epic level characters without removing their ability to do anything via control monsters is to simply change the way current monster defenses work.
I run a lot of specials, heck I helped Marshall and run the special at Gen Con this year, and the feedback I have received is, players want to have their actions, not have every ability removed because its the only way to stop them from doing anything.
Simply change the format around, let the monsters have better ways to mitigate what the players do while allowing them the ability to do their turns and I think a lot of players will be much more pleased. Because as it stands, tricked out tables have a 50% chance to roll through things without breaking a sweat due to massive damage, initiative rolls etc, or they die because of immobilization, dazed, prone, being thrown out continuously.
Just some feedback on the entire state of combat / solo monster thing for you wotc type people to mull over.

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4 years ago  ::  Aug 16, 2009 - 9:32PM #15
kenobi65
  • Volunteer Community Lead
Date Joined: May 6, 2001
Posts: 1,919

KarmaInferno wrote:

Solos should never be 'solo', despite the name.

Most of them can be trivialized, if alone, by a competent controller.


I noted just this at GenCon over the weekend. We faced what I thought was going to be a *very* challenging encounter against a Solo. We had a Wizard at our table, who was very good at what he did. With a few spells, he was able to severely limit the monster's tactical options against us. (And, with two leaders in the party, we were able to keep from even being seriously wounded by it.)

"Of course [Richard] has a knife.  He always has a knife.  We all have knives.  It's 1183, and we're barbarians!" - Eleanor of Aquitaine, "The Lion in Winter"
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4 years ago  ::  Aug 17, 2009 - 1:17AM #16
Bigfluffylemon
Date Joined: Nov 10, 2003
Posts: 719
It's a tough balance, though. Give the monster an ability to shake off daze, stun, etc., and the warlock player who's invested a lot in single target control sulks.

And I'd never have a 'negate crits on an 11-20' thing. Crits are great, and no-one wants to be told that the natural 20 doesn't crit. That's not fun.

Solos already have 5+ saves, so should shake 80% of conditions in the first round, but as long as one member of a five person party hits with a debilitating condition each round, they're locked down. OTOH, if you let the solo save at the start of its turn, there's an 80% chance that daily you blew did nothing but damage, which sucks.

No easy solution, really. The best one, IMO, is to build encounters featuring lower level solos + grunts. Individual solos equal to party level are rarely a threat.

PS 260+ damage on a crit? Really? That must involve some serious cheese; given that most CharOp rubbish is highly item dependent, I wouldn't have thought that much would show up in LFR, at least not until epic.
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4 years ago  ::  Aug 17, 2009 - 7:07AM #17
Christopher_Rowe
Date Joined: Jul 4, 2008
Posts: 314

Bigfluffylemon wrote:

And I'd never have a 'negate crits on an 11-20' thing. Crits are great, and no-one wants to be told that the natural 20 doesn't crit. That's not fun.


Just because this came up recently in a local game; natural 20s aren't automatic crits (though they are automatic hits). The modified attack number still has to be enough to hit the given defense.

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4 years ago  ::  Aug 17, 2009 - 7:33AM #18
Bigfluffylemon
Date Joined: Nov 10, 2003
Posts: 719

Christopher_Rowe wrote:

Just because this came up recently in a local game; natural 20s aren't automatic crits (though they are automatic hits). The modified attack number still has to be enough to hit the given defense.


I know. That's not a fun situation to be in. You should never be facing an enemy that you can't even hit except on a (non-critting) natural 20.

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4 years ago  ::  Aug 17, 2009 - 8:36AM #19
Christopher_Rowe
Date Joined: Jul 4, 2008
Posts: 314

Bigfluffylemon wrote:

I know. That's not a fun situation to be in. You should never be facing an enemy that you can't even hit except on a (non-critting) natural 20.


Oh, absolutely. Though, to paint a slightly more complete picture of the particular situation I have in mind, a weakened wizard probably has better options than charging to bull rush a brute.

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4 years ago  ::  Aug 17, 2009 - 10:58AM #20
Cpttylorx
Date Joined: Feb 10, 2008
Posts: 226

Bigfluffylemon wrote:

It's a tough balance, though. Give the monster an ability to shake off daze, stun, etc., and the warlock player who's invested a lot in single target control sulks.

And I'd never have a 'negate crits on an 11-20' thing. Crits are great, and no-one wants to be told that the natural 20 doesn't crit. That's not fun.

No easy solution, really. The best one, IMO, is to build encounters featuring lower level solos + grunts. Individual solos equal to party level are rarely a threat.

PS 260+ damage on a crit? Really? That must involve some serious cheese; given that most CharOp rubbish is highly item dependent, I wouldn't have thought that much would show up in LFR, at least not until epic.


My cleric this weekend with the right feats, did a 4w attack that critted for a 140+ damage, then followed it up with a basic attack due to a feat, recharged a monsters ability that it then used, it made me bloodied, and I used a daily item to get two free basic attacks which I used. (Mind you my free attacks were doing 2w due to a stonekeepers utility) Then with my action point I hit with a 3 weapon power. So all around with one crit and 5 hits due to circumstance I did over 300+ points of damage at paragon.

I've also seen a paragon ranger hit for over 200 damage with a single power usage and a crit.

So yes, if PC paragon paths can allow for crit reduction, giving higher level paragon monsters crit reduction isn't too bad. It has to be something along those lines or else you'll see solo monsters with heroic tier paralyth's, or other creatures with severe character control powers to balance the power spread.

So yes, I'd thoroughly recommendthat whenever a solo monster gets critted, they can roll 11-20 to negate the crit, if they are hit with a stun, daze, or unconscious effect to have a free 11-20 to negate that ability. But thats it.

But, this solution is much better (understanding players get unhappy when they crit, or daze an oppenent, but they get more unhappy when they start their turn, dazed, prone, immobilized, taking ongoing damage, and restrained - which is where this will go as the only way to slow down high paragon, low epic level characters.)

Monster defenses have to be changed, but not in a way that will tpk lower end, less optimized characters. This situation presents a unique way of not adding additional damage options like the mm2 provides, without increasing the over all effectiveness of a solo monster. It just now has a better chance of not simply melting agaisnt the cheese table, while still providing the same level of challenge for a un-cheesed table.

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