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4 years ago ::
Aug 12, 2009 - 9:07AM
#1
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Date Joined:
Jul 13, 2008
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I\m interested in other's opinions on Solo encounters they have faced in LFR mods.
My opinion of the Solo encounters so far, is that they just don't work for LFR. Reasoning why -
Solo Encounters are supposed to be a challenging, tough fight for the group of adventures. Only problem is that in LFR mods they either a (A) cakewalk, or (B) a party killer.
This is becouse, for solo encounters to really work, they need to be tailored, somewhat, to the party. With a LFR table, you don't always know what classes you'll be setting and playing with. So the mods solo encounter could end up being underpowered or overpowered for the table.
Here's a couple examples - Party facing a Solo Brute. Party's Ranger able to take on a -2 to hit, Wizard able to take on a -2 to hit, fighter with his mark able to tack on a -2 to hit, and fighter with shield bash able to tack on another -2 to hit. Brute facing a high AC fighter at -4 to hit or going after someone else with a -8 to hit. GM screams in frustration as Brute can't hit anything.
All melee group facing a Solo Flying Skirmisher. Party not able to do decent damage at range and no way to pin the flyer down in one spot. Party screams in frustration as the Flyer zones in and out, killing the party one by one.
So most of the solo encounter in LFR I've seen so far, have been, 'Let's have fun with killing this guy.' With a few 'ARG! We need to run or we'll all die'. :D dramatised:D
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4 years ago ::
Aug 12, 2009 - 10:00AM
#2
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Date Joined:
Nov 10, 2003
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The vast majority of solo encounters I've seen have been cakewalks, and I haven't been terribly impressed with them on either side of the table.
The main problems, and I think it's symptomatic of solo encounters in 4e in general, rather than an LFR thing, are twofold.
Firstly, most solos simply don't dish out enough damage to be a threat. A solo in a 7-10 high tier mod I encountered did 1d10 + 4 damage on a melee basic, with it's non-recharge basic swing going at +16 vs AC and making that attack twice. Against a 'typical' level 9 or 10 frontliner that's a 10 or 11 to hit (worse if they go after the defender that's marking them), for a total of around 9 damage per round. Ok, of course said solo can do other things, and has action points, but if the DM rolls poorly for recharge for a couple of rounds...
Secondly, status effects can be piled on making the solo unable to do anything useful. 'Action denial' powers, be they immobilise, daze, prone, big penalties to hit, or whatever, are approximately five times more effective in the solo encounter than the 'normal' encounter. Look at the powers your PC has - unless you're a controller (and even then), the chances are that if they impose status effects, they'll be better vs. a solo than a normal monster. Ok, you have to hit, but hitting isn't a problem for reasonably well kitted out PCs, and combat advantage is very easy to come by against a solo.
As a result, nearly all the solo fights I've fought and run have seen the DM screaming in frustration because it can't do anything, while the players scream in frustration because despite the fact that they're in no real danger, they have to grind down 400 odd hitpoints, which becomes boring.
There have been exceptions. Core1-4 and Core1-5 both contain enjoyable solo encounters (the latter mostly because of imaginative use of terrain; the solo itself suffers from having a too low 'to hit'), but those are the only two I can think of. Ironically enough, every dragon encounter I've fought has been an absolute walkover for the PCs. And dragons are supposed to be scary.
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4 years ago ::
Aug 12, 2009 - 10:09AM
#3
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Date Joined:
Aug 19, 2007
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Put me on the "Solos don't really work" club too.
I think that you can often get the effect you're after by placing two Elites rather than one Solo. Two Elites really opens up the options for the DM.
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4 years ago ::
Aug 12, 2009 - 10:20AM
#4
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Date Joined:
Mar 28, 2009
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All melee group facing a Solo Flying Skirmisher. Party not able to do decent damage at range and no way to pin the flyer down in one spot. Party screams in frustration as the Flyer zones in and out, killing the party one by one. dramatised:D Hmm.
1. Ready standard action (grab) for soly flying skirmisher to come within melee range. 2. Grab skirmisher. 3. Rest of part beat held skirmisher to death.
or (more simply)
1. Ready melee attack for skirmisher to come within range. 2. Skirmisher makes fly-by attack. 3. Readied action interrupts, melee attack hits/misses. 4. repeat.
"At Gencon 2010, WOTC will announce a new edition of Dungeons & Dragons." - crm(1/2010)
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4 years ago ::
Aug 12, 2009 - 11:13AM
#5
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Date Joined:
Jun 12, 2008
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My experience with Solos -- on both sides of the table -- is that they make a boring encounter when SOLO. In other words, Solos are far more interesting when combined with several non-Minion allies; Minions just die too quickly so, after round 2, the Solo is usually alone anyway.
To stay within LFR XP budgets, I either steal some XP away from another encounter's budget or downgrade the Solo's level for an XP "refund" from which I can purchase more monsters or traps. Is this cheating? Maybe, but I believe this technique still maintains the "flavor" of the encounter and I am still within the total XP budget for the module.
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4 years ago ::
Aug 12, 2009 - 11:26AM
#6
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Date Joined:
Dec 16, 2005
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Hmm.
1. Ready standard action (grab) for soly flying skirmisher to come within melee range. 2. Grab skirmisher. 3. Rest of part beat held skirmisher to death.
or (more simply)
1. Ready melee attack for skirmisher to come within range. 2. Skirmisher makes fly-by attack. 3. Readied action interrupts, melee attack hits/misses. 4. repeat. There are two difficulties with this.
First, without a grasping weapon, grab is usually an exercise in futility past the level 1-4 mods. Why? Because you are making an unmodified Str attack. The monsters' defenses have gone up by two (vis a vis) level 1 by level 4. Your grab bonus has only gone up by 1. By the time you're level 10, your attack bonus with grab will have fallen five points behind the progression in the monsters' defenses. And that's assuming that you are a strength attacker to begin with. For most swordmages, charisma paladins, etc, it was futile at level 1. Since the monster is a solo, you weren't very likely to hit to start with.
Second, in many such cases, the monster has no reason to ever come close enough to grab. Flying artillery, for instance, can sit 12-20 squares up and blast anyone without being exposed to much worse than javalins and magic missiles. Even skirmishers with reach can be problematic.
In any event, such instances are a good example of why I am coming to believe that a grasping javalin/skyrender javalin/orb of undeniable gravity/ebony fly is mandatory equipment in LFR much like a scroll or potion of fly was mandatory equipment in previous editions. Furthermore, it is essential that at least a few party members have powers that can knock prone or immobilize at range.
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4 years ago ::
Aug 12, 2009 - 11:29AM
#7
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Date Joined:
Dec 16, 2005
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To stay within LFR XP budgets, I either steal some XP away from another encounter's budget or downgrade the Solo's level for an XP "refund" from which I can purchase more monsters or traps. Is this cheating? Maybe, but I believe this technique still maintains the "flavor" of the encounter and I am still within the total XP budget for the module. "Solo" is a really unfortunate name for the monster class. Since most of the encounter groups listed in the monster manual for solo monsters actually show other non-minion monsters with the solo, I don't think this is close to cheating.
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4 years ago ::
Aug 12, 2009 - 11:35AM
#8
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Date Joined:
Aug 11, 2006
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There are two difficulties with this.
First, without a grasping weapon, grab is usually an exercise in futility past the level 1-4 mods. Why? Because you are making an unmodified Str attack. The monsters' defenses have gone up by two (vis a vis) level 1 by level 4. Your grab bonus has only gone up by 1. By the time you're level 10, your attack bonus with grab will have fallen five points behind the progression in the monsters' defenses. And that's assuming that you are a strength attacker to begin with. For most swordmages, charisma paladins, etc, it was futile at level 1. Since the monster is a solo, you weren't very likely to hit to start with.
Second, in many such cases, the monster has no reason to ever come close enough to grab. Flying artillery, for instance, can sit 12-20 squares up and blast anyone without being exposed to much worse than javalins and magic missiles. Even skirmishers with reach can be problematic.
In any event, such instances are a good example of why I am coming to believe that a grasping javalin/skyrender javalin/orb of undeniable gravity/ebony fly is mandatory equipment in LFR much like a scroll or potion of fly was mandatory equipment in previous editions. Furthermore, it is essential that at least a few party members have powers that can knock prone or immobilize at range. When i was playing my garrote rogue, he has a 23 or so to grab. This was because he had very high str and all the bonuses and stuff the garrote has actually does increase your chances to hit when using it with a grab attack.
I'd get along more with people if they didn't jump onto a hyberbole every single time you say something they don't understand.
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4 years ago ::
Aug 12, 2009 - 12:12PM
#9
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Date Joined:
Jan 26, 2005
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Garrotes act similarly to grasping weapons, so yes. A garrote works too...it's just far more limited.
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4 years ago ::
Aug 12, 2009 - 12:39PM
#10
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Date Joined:
Mar 28, 2009
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There are two difficulties with this.
First, without a grasping weapon, grab is usually an exercise in futility past the level 1-4 mods. Why? Because you are making an unmodified Str attack. The monsters' defenses have gone up by two (vis a vis) level 1 by level 4. Your grab bonus has only gone up by 1. By the time you're level 10, your attack bonus with grab will have fallen five points behind the progression in the monsters' defenses. And that's assuming that you are a strength attacker to begin with. For most swordmages, charisma paladins, etc, it was futile at level 1. Since the monster is a solo, you weren't very likely to hit to start with.
Second, in many such cases, the monster has no reason to ever come close enough to grab. Flying artillery, for instance, can sit 12-20 squares up and blast anyone without being exposed to much worse than javalins and magic missiles. Even skirmishers with reach can be problematic.
In any event, such instances are a good example of why I am coming to believe that a grasping javalin/skyrender javalin/orb of undeniable gravity/ebony fly is mandatory equipment in LFR much like a scroll or potion of fly was mandatory equipment in previous editions. Furthermore, it is essential that at least a few party members have powers that can knock prone or immobilize at range. Good points. Of course, even without grasping, a simple +1 Javelin can ruin ranged artillery's day. (Heavy thrown, basic attack from a fighter). Dex based characters have easier choices with crossbow (simple ranged). Even a paladin can challenge and hold the attention of ranged artillery by throwing rocks.
"At Gencon 2010, WOTC will announce a new edition of Dungeons & Dragons." - crm(1/2010)
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