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4 years ago ::
Aug 17, 2009 - 12:25PM
#71
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Date Joined:
May 11, 2009
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Actually...
Role playing DOES increase your chances of winning. The other day we managed to defeat an encounter via role playing a handful of skill checks rather than the normal "HULK SMASH!" routine we did in the first few encounters.
If we had taken them on, We probably would have died.
I disagree.
You decided to do skill checks instead of combat. That's a tactical decision. You can roleplay this decision, but a player can make this same decision without roleplaying.
Next, your skill checks are determined by your character build and die rolls. Roleplaying does not grant you bonuses to succeed.
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4 years ago ::
Aug 17, 2009 - 12:42PM
#72
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Roleplaying does not grant you bonuses to succeed.[/quote]
I totally disagree.
Many DMs I have played with grant bonus's to roles based on creative role-playing during skill challenges/social encounters. I don't have the rules in front of me, but I believe the DMG suggests a +1 to +2 bonus to skill checks based on role-play and situation.
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4 years ago ::
Aug 17, 2009 - 12:55PM
#73
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Date Joined:
May 11, 2009
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I totally disagree.
Many DMs I have played with grant bonus's to roles based on creative role-playing during skill challenges/social encounters. I don't have the rules in front of me, but I believe the DMG suggests a +1 to +2 bonus to skill checks based on role-play and situation.
But it is inconsistent and based on the DM's judgement. One of my previous responses to DM's granting bonuses due to roleplaying:
If roleplaying does in fact grant benefits, it becomes a semi-controllable factor, but it is not consistent. A player can roleplay, then a DM can decide whether or not to grant a benefit. The problem is that all situations are different, so it varies from player to player and DM to DM. The previous two factors, character building and decision making, are consistent. You can mathematically calculate the probability of success. You cannot do that with roleplaying.
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4 years ago ::
Aug 17, 2009 - 12:59PM
#74
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Date Joined:
May 11, 2009
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I really hope the authors and admins have not chosen to go down this road.
...play an optimized character or don't play RPGA games... hah jk
I HOPE they don't make mods that difficult so that players can only survive with cheese.
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4 years ago ::
Aug 17, 2009 - 1:17PM
#75
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The problem is that all situations are different, so it varies from player to player and DM to DM.[/quote]
YES! And your DM is also a variable that you can't control, optimized character or not. If YOU are king of the D&D universe and build your optimized character, and have complete control over rules aplication, then yes, your point of view holds true.
Unfortunately you are at the mercy of a HUGE variable in the DM, whose job it is to apply the rules, but also tell a story, and create a fun game for the table.
One thing to consider with your optimized character philosophy is that it is rare for a DM to let you breeze through an adventure. If you are having too easy a time, most DM's that I have played with adjust the mod to be tougher, and use harsher tactics. This is where optimization might work against you. most DM's that I have played with also adjust the mod down a bit if the players are having a very tough time of it. The idea is for the mod to be a challenge. If the rolls go against you and you wipe, so be it. But it should not be impossible or a cakewalk either way.
If your point is that you should build an optimized character as that is the one variable that you have control over, that does not hold true as the DM creates variable experiences from game to game (regardless of characters). Role-Playing-Games are not a controlled environment.
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4 years ago ::
Aug 17, 2009 - 10:36PM
#76
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One thing I noticed at this most recent GenCon is that Optimized Characters really annoy RPGA DMs. In one LFR game we had to debate with our judge that we were capable of handling High Tier on 1-4 level mod (party had 4x 4th level, a 3rd level, and a 2nd level characters), and when my Ranger cut loose on the final encounter's primary NPC with five attacks (Twin Strike, Ruffling Sting, Action point for Jaws of the Wolf) after our Warlord gave us +9 damage per melee hit (and a Battle Standard and a Chessenta Background bonus, etc...) and I did around 90-100 points of damage on my first round they were simply ticked off at me.
This judge didn't do anything vindictive in game terms (that I am aware of anyway), but I was treated as if I had done something wrong for the remainder of the round by that judge.
In an earlier round we were definitely given an ominous warning when the judge looked at our characters and behaved as if he were being challenged by us personally because it was clear we had worked to optimize our group and our Adventuring Company as a whole. I think we were missed by two attacks that entire session, and although I understand specials are supposed to be difficult this beat any probability statistic of which I am aware.
We played Blackmoor two years ago, Paizo last year, and this has been our first year of LFR. Each has had its own pros and cons, but only Blackmoor seemed to have judges that were impartial. The other two Living campaigns have had judges all across the spectrum from openly benevolent to the PCs to openly hostile. Paizo even told us with a direct quote "We don't care how good our judges are." in the context of explaining that we'd had wildly different experiences at GenCon '08 which was one of the big reasons we switched to LFR. The majority of my gaming group's issue with Blackmoor was how they handled loot distribution (I happened to like it, but the majority did not.) Right now we're still interested in continuing with LFR, but I am not going to stick with a game where I have to be nervous that a particular judge has decided to take his frustrations out on me, and I have to pay for the privilege.
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4 years ago ::
Aug 17, 2009 - 10:57PM
#77
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YES! And your DM is also a variable that you can't control, optimized character or not. If YOU are king of the D&D universe and build your optimized character, and have complete control over rules aplication, then yes, your point of view holds true.
Unfortunately you are at the mercy of a HUGE variable in the DM, whose job it is to apply the rules, but also tell a story, and create a fun game for the table.
One thing to consider with your optimized character philosophy is that it is rare for a DM to let you breeze through an adventure. If you are having too easy a time, most DM's that I have played with adjust the mod to be tougher, and use harsher tactics. This is where optimization might work against you. most DM's that I have played with also adjust the mod down a bit if the players are having a very tough time of it. The idea is for the mod to be a challenge. If the rolls go against you and you wipe, so be it. But it should not be impossible or a cakewalk either way.
If your point is that you should build an optimized character as that is the one variable that you have control over, that does not hold true as the DM creates variable experiences from game to game (regardless of characters). Role-Playing-Games are not a controlled environment.
I disagree a great deal with this sentiment. Suggesting the DM can determine what is "fun" universally is a ridiculous notion in my opinion. Having a character killed in an incredibly hard challenge is going to be fun for one person and tortuous for another, similarly the "cakewalk" one person will love and another will hate. In my view the ideal situation would be for two different groups to play in the same module with two different DMs and walk away with virtually the same experience. Not one group talking about how their DM allowed them access to both high and low tier bundles becaue they played high, but disallowed their use of backgrounds because they didn't think they were permitted in LFR, and the other group telling them that their final encounter was totally different because the DM didn't like them having optimized characters, and wanted to "challenge" them.
RPGs may not be a controlled environment, but RPGA events held at Cons absolutely should be. These are not open ended invitations to try to conquer LFR if that's the way the players and DM want to play... There is a specific goal, and yes, good mods will allow players to feel like their choices are going to matter in some way, but the bottom line is that you cannot stray from the provided material.
To use a sports analogy there needs to be consistent adjudication by the referees/umpires/etc from one game to the next no matter how many different crews of refs/umps/etc there are. Otherwise you create an inconsistent product that leads to unfulfilled expectations and resentment. If you are going to charge people money for a product, and you want people to continue to buy that product then that product needs to be reliable and consistent. That is my view anyway.
Throwing up your hands and saying that DMs have a responsibility to modify the material provided in an effort to make it "fun" is a recipe for disaster. Fun is totally subjective. The writers and editors already did the best they could to make it fun, and it is not up to a random individual to throw that judgement out of the window even with the best intentions. That's why Mods are "official" and why there is any structure to LFR in the first place.
The above is just my opinon and is not meant in any way as an attack on anyone personally. I just disagree with the sentiment of the poster I quoted, and wanted to express why I felt the way that I did.
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4 years ago ::
Sep 03, 2009 - 9:43AM
#78
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Date Joined:
May 13, 2004
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I wonder how many LFR games the OP has played in? There were times I have a sat down to a LFR game, and there were there were 5 strikers, and a controller? No defender, no leader... What would the OP do then? Get up and walk away from the game because his group is not optimized?
I would have played for an hour and see how the game went, especially how the DM presented the encounters. If he does not adjust the encounters to a lower difficulty, then yes, I would probably leave at that point. He is being a bad DM and is wasting my time to inflate his ego. The encounter shouldn't be ridiculously easy; it just needs to be challenging. Finding that balance is difficult, but should be well attempted.
Actually in the 5 Striker one cotroller group we "played the module up" and the DM adjusted nothing (except using the harder variations). This group was cheesed out and I guess you could say that this somewhat makes your original point.
However, If you just got up and left in the middle of the adventure for a non emergency reason at where I play at: 1) Someone (or probably everyone) would have taken a very dim view of that and complained to the store manager or event staff, who would take a very dim view of that-so much so you might not be allowed to return or sign up for another game. 2) No Regular LFR DM would let you into a future game (and there are not a lot of these (LFR DM's) in my city). 3) None of the players would probably play with you again nor would they let into any of the private gaming groups that occur. 4) Face it, your rep does get around....you cant make people play with you... 5) By just getting up and leaving you reduce the parties chance of success more than any non, max'd out PC. Ian
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4 years ago ::
Sep 03, 2009 - 2:50PM
#79
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I wonder how many LFR games the OP has played in? There were times I have a sat down to a LFR game, and there were there were 5 strikers, and a controller? No defender, no leader... What would the OP do then? Get up and walk away from the game because his group is not optimized?
I would have played for an hour and see how the game went, especially how the DM presented the encounters. If he does not adjust the encounters to a lower difficulty, then yes, I would probably leave at that point. He is being a bad DM and is wasting my time to inflate his ego. The encounter shouldn't be ridiculously easy; it just needs to be challenging. Finding that balance is difficult, but should be well attempted.
Actually in the 5 Striker one cotroller group we "played the module up" and the DM adjusted nothing (except using the harder variations). This group was cheesed out and I guess you could say that this somewhat makes your original point.
However, If you just got up and left in the middle of the adventure for a non emergency reason at where I play at:
1) Someone (or probably everyone) would have taken a very dim view of that and complained to the store manager or event staff, who would take a very dim view of that-so much so you might not be allowed to return or sign up for another game.
2) No Regular LFR DM would let into a future game (and there are not a lot of these (LFR DM's) in my city).
3) None of the players would probably play with you again nor would they let into any of the private gaming groups that occur.
4) Face it, your rep does get around....you cant make people play with you...
5) By just getting up and leaving you reduce the parties chance of success more than any non, max'd out PC.
Ian
I played Forest of Ribbons with a four man table about 3 years ago at APL 6 the first encounter consists of a 3 teifling rogues and a seven headed hydra. One player gets hit for twenty-five points by the Hydra (my wizard was last in Int order) this PC then RAN FROM COMBAT and in the process blocks the only non hindering path leading to the Hydra. So not only was my charactor stuck at half movement but the Rogues had like boots of Woodland Stride so it came down provoking from two rogues and eating a crap load of sneak attack + AOO damage or making five foot shifts for the whole fight. Between the Hydra the Rogues, and being a player down in the fight we were SO MAD we made a special request after the near TPK (we had one survivor) that the Hydra hunt and kill the PC who ran away to which our DM agreed.
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4 years ago ::
Sep 06, 2009 - 3:13PM
#80
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Date Joined:
Jul 26, 2003
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I played Forest of Ribbons
You meant Torn to Ribbons, right? ..... 
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