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4 years ago ::
Aug 11, 2009 - 10:29AM
#31
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Date Joined:
Jul 22, 2009
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For an on-topic parallel, how's this.
Since someone else made a divine character and got them to level 10, can I simply make a level 10 paladin now? How does it "damage" you if I do?
I mean, if you want all the same options as a new player has now to have a fully rebuilt character every time there's a single new feat or power (yes, hyperbole is fun!) then the new player should ahve the same option to play a higher level character with all those new toys.
You're taking the game way too seriously if you feel like you've "earned" the right to play a higher level divine character because you "suffered through the hard times." You are no more entitled to a full rebuild just because there are new options as the new player is entitled to make a high level character just because other people have them.
How does "save my retrains like magic item slots" equate to "full rebuild"? I'm not asking for entitlements, I just want my retrains to be as "useful" as other people's. I think that only getting PHB options is "less" than PHB + Splat Book or PHB + Dragon.
Also, retrains don't allow *everything* to be retrained (e.g., stats and background. Retrains, unlike a new level 10 build, don't change my play history.
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4 years ago ::
Aug 11, 2009 - 10:31AM
#32
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Date Joined:
Jul 22, 2009
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Your right Kenobi, this is a "what can I do?" thread, not a "what should I be able to do?" thread.
I started the thread as a "what can I do" thread. I apologize if I was led astray by some "should" threads, I guess I just lost it with the last "seems fair" answer.
While I (and many others) have opinions on what the rules *should* be, I will be playing my character by what they are.
Although, I am still disappointed that a campaign admin type won't comment. That in itself is a [sad] comment.
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4 years ago ::
Aug 11, 2009 - 11:57AM
#33
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Date Joined:
Apr 29, 2008
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How does "save my retrains like magic item slots" equate to "full rebuild"? I'm not asking for entitlements, I just want my retrains to be as "useful" as other people's. I think that only getting PHB options is "less" than PHB + Splat Book or PHB + Dragon.
Also, retrains don't allow *everything* to be retrained (e.g., stats and background. Retrains, unlike a new level 10 build, don't change my play history.
It's a trade-off and probably the only one possible if the campaign is to maintain any degree of internal continuity. The good part of the bargain is that you get to keep playing you old character will all the accrued experience, treasure and history that entails. The down-side is that you have to keep playing your old character with all of the experience, treasure and history that entails.
Yes, if you could do it all again (or magically replay a year worth of progression now) you might do some things differently. But that's the trade off. Most people (and your comments lead me to believe you are one of these) feel that continuing to play a high level character is worth more than starting a completely new, especially considering that more options will continue to come out.
Besides, and this is the thing that really confuses me, what are you saving your per-level retraining for if not retraining? If every time a new option comes out you get a free retrain, what's the point of having retrain slots to start with? You are free to retrain almost every part of your character and almost everything else is available through class feats.
You keep saying that you are being forced to muddle on with just the PHB where as new players get to use everything. This is simply not so. For example, Ardent Strike is just as available (and useful) to you as any brand new Paladin build.
Although, I am still disappointed that a campaign admin type won't comment. That in itself is a [sad] comment.
Not really. The campaign admins almost never comment on the forums. They are too busy running the campaign. Several of the commenter have been from VLCs and, if my memory serves me right, writers and other associated with the campaign. This is about as much official attention any but the most heated and divisive threads gets.
This little signature is my official and insignificant protest to the (not so new now) community redesign.
The layout is lousy. The colour scheme burns the eyes. The wiki is a crippled monstrosity. So many posters have abandoned this site that some major forums are going days without posts. The 4e General Discussion board regularly has posts on the front page from two or even three days ago. This is pathetic.
Since I have to assume Wizards has a vested interest in an active community I wish someone in charge would fix this mess.
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4 years ago ::
Aug 11, 2009 - 12:06PM
#34
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Date Joined:
Jul 22, 2009
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Huh?
At Level X, I have had X-1 opportunities for retrain. I want to be able to use them all usefully. As a paladin, DP was not out for my first 6-8 levels, so I could not use my retrains for DP powers/feats. Most martial/arcane characters have had their splat book available for most (if not all) of their retrains.
I had PHB available, and chose the feats/powers I wanted out of it, so I didn't use my retrains. Had I had access to DP (as other chars have had access to MP and AP), I would have chosen some of those feats and powers, so I want to be able to use my retrains usefully, as many others have because their splat book was out.
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4 years ago ::
Aug 11, 2009 - 12:30PM
#35
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Date Joined:
Apr 29, 2008
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So you view the retrains you have not used because there was nothing interesting to you at the time as wasted in some way? And if you get this full retrain you want and a Paladin article comes out in Dragon two months from now will that also be unfair and demand another full retrain?
There is a system already in place to deal with material that comes out after you first make your character. They are called retrains. If the material was available the first time you made your characters you still would not have used the retrains because you could have taken the new options originally without a retrain.
The current situation does not represent missed opportunities to use retrains in the past. Your current (and mine for that matter) situation is the only reason retraining exists in the first place.
This little signature is my official and insignificant protest to the (not so new now) community redesign.
The layout is lousy. The colour scheme burns the eyes. The wiki is a crippled monstrosity. So many posters have abandoned this site that some major forums are going days without posts. The 4e General Discussion board regularly has posts on the front page from two or even three days ago. This is pathetic.
Since I have to assume Wizards has a vested interest in an active community I wish someone in charge would fix this mess.
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4 years ago ::
Aug 11, 2009 - 12:40PM
#36
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I had PHB available, and chose the feats/powers I wanted out of it, so I didn't use my retrains. Had I had access to DP (as other chars have had access to MP and AP), I would have chosen some of those feats and powers, so I want to be able to use my retrains usefully, as many others have because their splat book was out.
Let me ask you this. You indicated that you have a 9th level paladin, and a 7th level paladin. Now that Divine Power is out, and you've (obviously) had a chance to read through it...how many rules items do you want to retrain on each of those PCs?
"Of course [Richard] has a knife. He always has a knife. We all have knives. It's 1183, and we're barbarians!" - Eleanor of Aquitaine, "The Lion in Winter"
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4 years ago ::
Aug 11, 2009 - 1:36PM
#37
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Date Joined:
Jul 22, 2009
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Let me ask you this. You indicated that you have a 9th level paladin, and a 7th level paladin. Now that Divine Power is out, and you've (obviously) had a chance to read through it...how many rules items do you want to retrain on each of those PCs?
Paladin 9 [Human]
Class Feature
2 At-Wills
2 Feats
----------------(Level 9 Retrain)
(I took Level 9 Daily from DP when I leveled).
Level 1 Encounter Power
Level 7 Encounter Power
Probably my Level 2 Utility
So, 4 retrains, but two would be costly paragon retrains (usable to retrain a heroic -> paragon feat).
Yeah, that's how much better splat books are.
==================================
Level 7 Paladin [nonhuman]
Class Feature
1 at-will
Level 2 Utility
<=2 Feats (undecided)
---------------------------
Level 5 Daily
Level 6 Utility
So, I wouldn't be "complete" until Level 10...that's a ways to wait.
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4 years ago ::
Aug 11, 2009 - 2:32PM
#38
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Date Joined:
Jul 16, 2002
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Well, remember, that if you do want to retrain their class feature (i.e. lay on hands for one of the new paladin features that replaces it) you also get to retrain 2 powers and 2 feats. So that get you on your way at the very least. It is highly unlikely that the campaign will ever allow a full retrain seeing as the core rules offer a means for retraining to the shiny new toys and the campaign has already made an exception to the core rules by allowing the class feature retrains. So, while I think it's been said, by the rules (and honest play) you can't "save up passed retrains." You can retrain the class feature and swap out 4 things and/or you can swap out 1 skill/feat/power per level. So while it may seem like the character won't be "complete" until that's done, they have only played 1/3, or slightly more, of their entire career. In the grand scheme of things, it's not that long. Never mind that when DP2 comes out, or some Dragon article, you may suddenly find a whole bunch of other things you want for your pally. More options are great. But sometimes they're a curse.  At least there's an official mechanism to deal with it in 4e where previously you were stuck. 
Sorry WOTC, you lost me with Essentials. So where I used to buy every book that came out, now I will be very choosy about what I buy. Can we just get back to real 4e? Check out the 4e Conversion Wiki. 1. Wizards fight dirty. They hit their enemies in the NADs. -- Dragon9 2. A barbarian hits people with his axe. A warlord hits people with his barbarian. 3. Boo-freakin'-hoo, ya light-slingin' finger-wigglers. -- MrCelcius in response to the Cleric's Healer's Lore nerf
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4 years ago ::
Aug 11, 2009 - 3:50PM
#39
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Date Joined:
Jul 22, 2009
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Or maybe I just find a better game, instead of having a halfway ok time playing a divine character in an environment dominated by martial and arcane characters.
Seriously, go to a local game day and see what's being played. It's not usually high-level clerics or paladins. But with all the options for martial and arcane characters, why would it be?
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4 years ago ::
Aug 11, 2009 - 4:06PM
#40
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Date Joined:
Jul 16, 2002
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Maybe it's your region. Where I play there are a lot of Divine characters, and quite a few knocking on paragon's door if not in it already.
EDIT: primarily clerics and paladins
Sorry WOTC, you lost me with Essentials. So where I used to buy every book that came out, now I will be very choosy about what I buy. Can we just get back to real 4e? Check out the 4e Conversion Wiki. 1. Wizards fight dirty. They hit their enemies in the NADs. -- Dragon9 2. A barbarian hits people with his axe. A warlord hits people with his barbarian. 3. Boo-freakin'-hoo, ya light-slingin' finger-wigglers. -- MrCelcius in response to the Cleric's Healer's Lore nerf
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