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4 years ago ::
Aug 01, 2009 - 7:27PM
#1
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Date Joined:
Jul 22, 2009
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I have a question about Retraining. When I first started playing my Paladin, 10 months ago, I was told that retraining slots were the same as magic item slots -- you get one every level and can save them. It makes sense (that's the way the tracker is layed out). Given that Divine Power was ten months out, I didn't have much to do but build my character with what was there.
Martial and arcane characters (especially PHB2 arcanes) have had access to their splat books nearly constantly, but now with Divine Power, characters near paragon all of a sudden have a wealth of new options. So, I want to ask:
Do we get to keep our unused Retrains just like Magic Item slots (even possibly restricting the uses to ones that would have been valid -- no using a Level 2 retrain to to swap out a Level 5 power)? This works in CB (I know that isn't a QED, it's just a comment that that's how the coders interpreted the rule). And yes, when I go to Retraining with my 9th level character, I can retrain 2nd level powers with a level 2 retrain, but to get CB to show Level 3 powers I have to select the Level 3 retrain.
If not the above, when is the retraining decision made or lost? Say I make Level 9 before DP comes out. I wait until DP comes out (a few days later) and then do the "level up" paperwork for my paladin, and then play as 9th level for the first time afterwards. During Level Up, I take my 9th level Daily from DP and Level up once (class retraining -- so I can change my class feature, 2 feats, and 2 powers). Is this legal?
Finally, while not relevant to my situation with this character, I have seen the following question asked: Instead of *changing* your class feature can you *reaffirm* your class feature (i.e., "use/burn" your once/character feature retrain but effectively reselect your current feature so that you can get the 2 feats / 2 powers for one retrain)? I'd say say yes because it feels fair and doesn't seem to imbalance the game.
Anyway, we'll probably be seeing a lot of high-level characters retraining with the release of DP (because it's more likely that upper heroic tier Divine characters have retrained significantly less than other chars), and once Primal Power releases, we'll suddenly have a group of "old" Primals who haven't had lots of retrain options for a while get a whole new book.
Anyway, I tried searching and didn't find anything directly on point in the forum, so I thought I'd toss out the apple.
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4 years ago ::
Aug 01, 2009 - 8:43PM
#2
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Date Joined:
May 23, 2005
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You are confusing 2 separate mechanics. The magic item slots are unique to the RPGA and LFR. The retrain mechanics are exactly like they are in the PHB except for where the RPGA has allowed you to 1 time retrain a class feature. This 1 time retrain allows you to train into a new class feature and change up to 2 feats and up to 2 powers.
So to answer your one question. NO you can not save up retrains.
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4 years ago ::
Aug 01, 2009 - 9:31PM
#3
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Date Joined:
Jul 16, 2002
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By the PHB, you can only make a change at level. However [devil's advocate hat on]The CB is a rules source and in it, when you level up and you go to retrain, you can select earlier levels to do a retrain in and can select multiple retrains. So if we are to use the CB as a rules source, apparently you can do multiple retrains from previous levels.[/devil's advocate hat off]
Now I will finish this by saying that the PHB version is what should be followed (1 time when you level, once you go past leveling you can't go back for passed retrains). However, one has an argument for doing a "mass retrain" because of the Cb being an official rules source, so I wouldn't fault someone for that.
Yet another reason not to have it as a rules source.
Sorry WOTC, you lost me with Essentials. So where I used to buy every book that came out, now I will be very choosy about what I buy. Can we just get back to real 4e? Check out the 4e Conversion Wiki. 1. Wizards fight dirty. They hit their enemies in the NADs. -- Dragon9 2. A barbarian hits people with his axe. A warlord hits people with his barbarian. 3. Boo-freakin'-hoo, ya light-slingin' finger-wigglers. -- MrCelcius in response to the Cleric's Healer's Lore nerf
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4 years ago ::
Aug 02, 2009 - 1:36AM
#4
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Date Joined:
Jan 26, 2005
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By the PHB, you can only make a change at level. However [devil's advocate hat on]The CB is a rules source and in it, when you level up and you go to retrain, you can select earlier levels to do a retrain in and can select multiple retrains. So if we are to use the CB as a rules source, apparently you can do multiple retrains from previous levels.[/devil's advocate hat off]
Now I will finish this by saying that the PHB version is what should be followed (1 time when you level, once you go past leveling you can't go back for passed retrains). However, one has an argument for doing a "mass retrain" because of the Cb being an official rules source, so I wouldn't fault someone for that.
Yet another reason not to have it as a rules source.
You can change previous levels' feats without a retrain. Are you arguing that that's legal? Clearly not. This is merely a fudge to allow you to do multiple levels' worth of building at one time.
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4 years ago ::
Aug 02, 2009 - 2:18AM
#5
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Date Joined:
Jul 22, 2009
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"Fudge" is sort of a negative term...the whole point of my question was that some classes have been relegated to waiting upwards of ten months for the splat book equivalent of what other classes have been been able to use for a long while. By definition, these classes could not have retrained because their splat book was unavailable. And there is another set of classes [Primal] that will be in this position when its splat book is released.
The only way to come close to equality is to let divine (and then primal) classes save their retrain slots. Let everybody do it. It's unlikely that martial/arcane characters would save up seven or so slots when they could just retrain at will because their splat book was available.
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4 years ago ::
Aug 02, 2009 - 5:45AM
#6
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Date Joined:
Mar 26, 2008
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The only way to come close to equality is to let divine (and then primal) classes save their retrain slots. Let everybody do it.
Having a level 7 cleric I don't feel the need to do a massive retrain. I've seen people mention how important domains are to their character and I personally just don't see it. Its 2 feats per domain. Not that important. I've also got a fairly broken (as in, not really that good) Level 8 Swordmage which I'm slowly improving one retrain at a time.
By the rules as they are intended, you cannot save retrains.
Would it be fairer? I don't know. That seems like a very vague argument considering that Splat book support isn't the only support. Warlocks have had an extra build and so an entire build's worth of powers, other classes have had varying degrees of support in Dragon. The idea that those who aren't supported as much should be compensated to keep things fair doesn't quite sit right with me (my only Martial character is level 4).
I'm not particularly fond of the idea of letting people hoard retrains. It if its too big of a problem for you, you don't have to follow the rules. You can simply swap out what you don't like. Chances are no-one will notice unless you change your class feature, which you're allowed to do once at any rate.
Considering the rules can't be enforced I personally consider them largely optional (although I do chose to follow them. I'm not going to have a fit if I find out others aren't following them  ). The main idea is to have fun. As someone with a gimped character, I definitely understand the impact it can have on your enjoyment and the desire to change it.
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4 years ago ::
Aug 02, 2009 - 5:45AM
#7
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Date Joined:
May 19, 2004
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How about another negative term: "cheat". Because, anyone that tries to save up retrains and use them all at once is cheating. Simple fact. I have a primal character, so I understand some of the frustration. My solution is what I recommend to anyone else in this situation.
Enjoy the character you are playing now. Make any decisions as if a splat book will never come out. And, when one does, use the one time class feature retrain allowed in LFR if you really think you need to. Then, enjoy the character you are playing at that time.
-SYB
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4 years ago ::
Aug 02, 2009 - 8:10AM
#8
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Date Joined:
Jul 16, 2002
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You can change previous levels' feats without a retrain. Are you arguing that that's legal? Clearly not. This is merely a fudge to allow you to do multiple levels' worth of building at one time.
I'm specifically talking about what is under the retraining section. As I clearly stated I don't believe it's legal, but seeing as the program is rules source and it allows you to retrain all previous levels at one time...
Just saying.
Sorry WOTC, you lost me with Essentials. So where I used to buy every book that came out, now I will be very choosy about what I buy. Can we just get back to real 4e? Check out the 4e Conversion Wiki. 1. Wizards fight dirty. They hit their enemies in the NADs. -- Dragon9 2. A barbarian hits people with his axe. A warlord hits people with his barbarian. 3. Boo-freakin'-hoo, ya light-slingin' finger-wigglers. -- MrCelcius in response to the Cleric's Healer's Lore nerf
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4 years ago ::
Aug 02, 2009 - 9:36AM
#9
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Date Joined:
Nov 15, 2004
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If you could save your retrains, you could wait to use them until you got to 11th or 21st level and retrain all of your old feats to the now available paragon or epic feats. That doesn't seem right at all.
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4 years ago ::
Aug 02, 2009 - 12:21PM
#10
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Date Joined:
Mar 16, 2005
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If you could save your retrains, you could wait to use them until you got to 11th or 21st level and retrain all of your old feats to the now available paragon or epic feats. That doesn't seem right at all.
In fact this particular abuse is called out as invalid here (by describing how retraining tiered feats does work):
You can replace heroic tier feats and paragon tier feats with higher-tier feats, but only one at a time, once per level you gain. For instance, at 11th level, you gain one feat and you can also retrain one of your heroic tier feats, gaining a paragon tier feat in its place. At 12th level you can do the same, so you can potentially have four paragon tier feats at 12th level.[/quote]
I agree that the retraining rules (which are part of the rules for leveling up your character) require you make the choice at the time you gain a level and don't allow you to save up the choices. The character builder software specifically allocates each retraining slot to a level, the fact that you can make the retraining choices later (or even change powers without retraining) are just the most intuitive way to make the interface work for a tool which is intended for general use, not just LFR.
I hope that the next CCG clarifies that the character builder should really only be considered a "rules resource" for the text of powers, since those are the only thing that are printed in full on your character sheet.
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