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4 years ago ::
Jul 16, 2009 - 5:47AM
#261
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Date Joined:
Jul 16, 2002
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Just a quick Q.
Since the Wilden playtest is now accessible in the CB, does that:
1) Qualify it as CB debut content?
No. The PHB3 material being released early for subscribers is Debut content. If you look at the supporting article for the Psion it has a big logo that says Debut Content.
2) Make it eligible for LFR use?
No. It was a Dragon item that didn't make it into the compiled issue. It isn't legal.
Sorry WOTC, you lost me with Essentials. So where I used to buy every book that came out, now I will be very choosy about what I buy. Can we just get back to real 4e? Check out the 4e Conversion Wiki. 1. Wizards fight dirty. They hit their enemies in the NADs. -- Dragon9 2. A barbarian hits people with his axe. A warlord hits people with his barbarian. 3. Boo-freakin'-hoo, ya light-slingin' finger-wigglers. -- MrCelcius in response to the Cleric's Healer's Lore nerf
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4 years ago ::
Jul 16, 2009 - 5:50AM
#262
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Date Joined:
Jul 16, 2002
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As I mentioned up-thread, the most important change is simply in wording: - Don't list a PC's status as "legal in RPGA Living Forgotten Realms", instead say, "Please check the RPGA Character Creation Guide to ensure your character is legal for RPGA Living Forgotten Realms."
- When you click on that status indicator, instead of telling you "Your character is complete and legal", it could tell you to check the LFR CCG to see if your character is complete and legal, and provide a link.
- Instead of saying an illegal character is "houseruled in RPGA Living Forgotten Realms" (which conveys nothing useful to me), say "This character does not appear to be legal for RPGA Living Forgotten Realms."
But, yes, if the wording is hard-coded and these changes are impossible, I cannot conceive of how bad guidance is better than no guidance at all, so would suggest the campaign file as a whole be re-thought.
It is hard coded AFAIK. If you go to the Manage screen and change the Campaign Name field to RPGA Fubar and save it. The screen will show "This character is legal in RPGA Fubar."
Sorry WOTC, you lost me with Essentials. So where I used to buy every book that came out, now I will be very choosy about what I buy. Can we just get back to real 4e? Check out the 4e Conversion Wiki. 1. Wizards fight dirty. They hit their enemies in the NADs. -- Dragon9 2. A barbarian hits people with his axe. A warlord hits people with his barbarian. 3. Boo-freakin'-hoo, ya light-slingin' finger-wigglers. -- MrCelcius in response to the Cleric's Healer's Lore nerf
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4 years ago ::
Jul 16, 2009 - 8:25AM
#263
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Date Joined:
May 27, 2009
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The problem is there are people that are going to use the Character Builder to build 'illegal' characters. To be honest with you, the people that do this are in the 'right'. We pay hard earned money for the Character Builder, is it too much to expect it to be right? WotC is acually doing a good job of keeping the Character Builder updated. Since the RPGA is using the Character Builder as a resource, shouldn't someone be responsible to make sure the information is correct?
I don't fault the person who updates the CB, mistakes can happen. However, I am also not going to fault the player that makes a character while his paid DDI subscription is telling him it is a legal character. I see no difference between a player reward card for playing an orc and a DDI subscriber getting a reward with subscription. Fix or close the loophole, if it even is wrong, but grandfather in the people that made and played a hybrid while it was open. Be gracious and fair to all players of all levels.
Quite honestly, I read the CCG to say that the CB is a source. With no glossary of terms or defined precidents of the terminology for the types of sources containted in the CCG itself or a governing document by the RPGA they become subject. I personally have a year's worth of studying in an institute of higher learning dealing with decifering language that is being used in situations like this and it is not clear. The fact that there is so much debate shows it is not clear.
Be gracious. Be fair. Encourage players to play. Champion fun. Be weary of the campaign no longer beng gracious, fair, playable, or fun. If we lose those, the campaign will die.
Jason
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4 years ago ::
Jul 16, 2009 - 9:05AM
#264
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Date Joined:
May 22, 2009
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Ok I just have to say my 2 cents...
1. Where in the heck does it say there is a difference between "Rules source" and "Campaign source"? Things not allowable in a campaign (such as the backgrounds from Eberron) were indeed specified in the CCG, leaving me to state that there is no seperate "campaign source". Allowable, playable classes definitely is a rule.
2. Secondly, the article (dated from May) states that Hybrids are not for RPGA, not on the Compendium, and not on the Character Builder AT THAT TIME (a very important phrase previous posters left out). Why is it crazy to assume that since condition 2 and 3 have changed, and that both are rules sources, that condition 1 did not as well.
3. Either Hybrids are legal, the CCG needs to be amended to remove Character Builder as a rules source, or Wizards should apologize for this mistake and continue to allow CB as a rules source with appropriate caution.
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4 years ago ::
Jul 16, 2009 - 11:32AM
#265
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1. Where in the heck does it say there is a difference between "Rules source" and "Campaign source"?
CCG page 1, last bullet point on the right: "Player resources are legal for character options." This is follwed by the list of player ressources at the left of page 2.
The character builder itself is not listed as a player ressource, only certain parts of it are (however it's indeed very hard to tell what CB content belongs to this parts and what doesn't).
Other than that the CB itself is listed on page 3 not as a player ressource but as "rules sources".
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4 years ago ::
Jul 16, 2009 - 12:26PM
#266
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Date Joined:
May 27, 2009
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The character builder itself is not listed as a player ressource, only certain parts of it are (however it's indeed very hard to tell what CB content belongs to this parts and what doesn't).
Other than that the CB itself is listed on page 3 not as a player ressource but as "rules sources".
The term "rules sources" is not narrowly defined, but instead used to refer to a list of resources used to update rules. It is important to note the the Character Builder is listed both as a player resource and as a way to update rules.
The point of the paragraph that uses the undefined term of "rules sources" is to give you a reference towards finding the most up to date rules wich as of the last CB update is the CB itself. Do bear in mind that the Rules Updates override the the player resources as is specifically defined in Rules Updates.
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All of this though is academic because there is a breakdown in clarity. Again, I suggest a solution of using this as a benefit to the campaign. Grandfather in character made and first played during this period. This may not even be uninteded as we do have people that believe it to be unintended, but no official statment it is unintended. After all, the forums are not a source of Rules Updates. The worst case scenario is of a limited number of people making an inconsequencial number of characters until a more clearly defined system can be put in place.
Call it a DDI subscriber bonus feature since rates went up. Call it a pilot program for PHB3. Call it a Summer Player Reward. It all ends when the PHB3 goes to shelves and probably much sooner as things update during playtest.
Be gracious. Be fair. Encourage players to play. Champion fun. Be wary of the campaign no longer beng gracious, fair, playable, or fun. If we lose those, the campaign will die.
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4 years ago ::
Jul 16, 2009 - 1:26PM
#267
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- Senior Volunteer Community Lead
- Dragon Slayer
- D&DI News Guide
Date Joined:
Aug 31, 2005
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I'm also a little confused by your invocation of rules lawyers, as such are generally impugned as preferring ambiguous contradictory messes of rules, which describe the status quo better than the alternatives suggested.
Such was not my intent.
In this case, at the very least, I imply Rules Lawyers to mean those who see the ambiguities in the rules and, by following the letter of them, see holes that need to be closed.
(In fact, aside from a general debate-oriented mindset, I've never personally thought anything negative about Rules Lawyers. I find they often debate BECAUSE they know the rules so well, and can see the flaws well enough to argue for them to be closed.
I would actually take your definition, if I'm reading you correctly, to be more of a cheese weasel then a rules lawyer [emphasis on the weasel - so as not to confuse them with power gamers, who are sometimes cheesy but FULLY within the rules beyond debate].  )
Wolf Star76 Community Advocate (SVCL) for D&D Organized Play, Avalon Hill, and the DCI/WPN LFR Community Manager DDi Guide  Created by MyFitnessPal - Free Calorie Counter
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4 years ago ::
Jul 16, 2009 - 1:29PM
#268
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- Senior Volunteer Community Lead
- Dragon Slayer
- D&DI News Guide
Date Joined:
Aug 31, 2005
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It is hard coded AFAIK. If you go to the Manage screen and change the Campaign Name field to RPGA Fubar and save it. The screen will show "This character is legal in RPGA Fubar."
I concur - If I make a Campaign File for my home "WolfStar's I Hate Divine Classes" campaign, limit out anything divine, and distribute that file, anyone who doesn't "houserule" something off my list is
"This character is legal in WolfStar's I Hate Divine Classes."
Doesn't mean it can't be changed, but it doesn't mean it's an EASY change either.
Wolf Star76 Community Advocate (SVCL) for D&D Organized Play, Avalon Hill, and the DCI/WPN LFR Community Manager DDi Guide Created by MyFitnessPal - Free Calorie Counter
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4 years ago ::
Jul 16, 2009 - 2:15PM
#269
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The term "rules sources" is not narrowly defined, but instead used to refer to a list of resources used to update rules.
And that is the definition of a rules source.
is important to note the the Character Builder is listed both as a player resource
No, it isn't. The exhaustive table of player ressources only lists "DDI CB exclusive content", not "DDI CB content" in general (which for exampe would also include items from Dungeon (and there certainly are some very nice magic items from Dungeon in the CB))
That there is a huge problem with identifying what stuff in the CB is exclusive content and what is not, the CB itself is never listed as a player ressource
Do bear in mind that the Rules Updates override the the player resources as is specifically defined in Rules Updates.
RR override PR only at how the stuff works, not at what stuff is avaible. That's the difference between the two. The RR tell you how Rain of Blows works, the PR tell you whether you're allowed to take Rain of Blows or not.
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4 years ago ::
Jul 16, 2009 - 3:12PM
#270
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Date Joined:
Jul 16, 2002
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No, it isn't. The exhaustive table of player ressources only lists "DDI CB exclusive content", not "DDI CB content" in general (which for exampe would also include items from Dungeon (and there certainly are some very nice magic items from Dungeon in the CB))
That there is a huge problem with identifying what stuff in the CB is exclusive content and what is not, the CB itself is never listed as a player ressource.
You haven't downloaded the updated CCG 1.9. It was changed to "DDI Character Builder Debut Content." The clarification was needed because there was confusion over what "exclusive" meant. Debut content is very specifically defined. (the bonus early material from PHB3 and other future books that is showing up in the CB and the Compendium only)
Also it's not saying that the Character Builder in its entirety is a player resource. It's saying that the CB Debut Content is a player resource. It's a narrow definition.
The broad category is as a rules source. So when Rain of Blows gets updated and its new version shows up in the CB, the CB is an official source for that rules update.
Contrary to some people's beliefs, the Hybrid article stating it's not legal then showing up in the CB/Compendium, or the Wilden/AV2/MP2 playtest not being compiled and showing up in the CB/Compendium is not any sort of statement to a new state of legality.
Sorry WOTC, you lost me with Essentials. So where I used to buy every book that came out, now I will be very choosy about what I buy. Can we just get back to real 4e? Check out the 4e Conversion Wiki. 1. Wizards fight dirty. They hit their enemies in the NADs. -- Dragon9 2. A barbarian hits people with his axe. A warlord hits people with his barbarian. 3. Boo-freakin'-hoo, ya light-slingin' finger-wigglers. -- MrCelcius in response to the Cleric's Healer's Lore nerf
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