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11 months ago ::
May 26, 2009 - 10:34AM
#1
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I'm looking for some feedback from DMs who have run the various LFR modules on how they handle skill challenges. I.E what do you tell the players, what don't you tell the players, how do you usually give hints, etc.
Christopher Green
RPGA# 5209379759
Aelar Tel'ess'san - Elven Cleric Lvl 4
Veloch Shade - Tiefling Rogue Lvl 4
Adaeth the Mindwalker - Deva Psion Lvl 2
The Story Tellers' Guild
The Roleplaying Association of SUNY Oswego
http://www.oswego.edu/stg
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11 months ago ::
May 26, 2009 - 1:38PM
#2
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I have stopped running skill challenges. I will describe the situation, let the party come up with a solution and assign success when they have done what is necessary to overcome the situation. Or, I will ask for skill checks from all of the players in order to deal with the situation. For example Drag 1-3
Show
In Dragon Coast 1-3, there are two significant skill challenges and neither of them are any good.
The first skill challenge calls for the party to go to a masquerade ball and then spend four or five hours of in-game time making diplomacy or bluff checks and gives a long list of NPCs what skills other than diplomacy and bluff can be used on each NPC and a long list of random rumors that have nothing to do with the plot of the module to fill out conversation with. And the best part about this is that the whole purpose of the PCs infiltrating the masquerade ball is to: A. find their contact and obtain the information and B. avoid committing any faux paus or otherwise blowing their cover. So the logical thing for the PCs to do would be to deliberately avoid talking to any of the named PCs if there were any possible way to do so and they would certainly not be trying to work the crowd.
What I did was ask the players what their cover was going to be and what they were going to dress as. Most of the players decided to go to the ball but the dwarf fighter decided to go to the ball as the carraige driver where he would have the party's weapons and armor that were not incorporated into their costumes hidden in their rented carraige. In the ball, I had everyone explain how they were going to avoid blowing their cover for the first hour. The warlord made polite small talk and then quickly got rid of people. (Diplomacy). The drow fighter did the same. The rogue used stealth so that no one noticed him. The deva used insight to look for someone who looked like they were looking for their contact (which succeeded). Since that didn't deal with the random social interactions, I had him roll a diplomacy check as well. Meanwhile, the dwarf was drinking and playing dice with the other lackeys, footmen, and carraige drivers. He rolled an endurance check to drink them under the table. The contact then found the PCs and they made their excuses and exited the party and came up with a plan to smuggle their equipment into the store room where the entrance to the undercity was. They stole some servants' clothes and a few boxes from the carraige house and put their gear in the crates then walked up to the servants' entrance carrying the crates. I asked for a bluff check when someone asked them where they were going and they were done.
So how is that not a skill challenge?
A. I don't have any arbitrary number of successes that I require. If the party decided to do what the module writer apparently intended and pump a bunch of NPCs for worthless information, they could have rolled all the successes they wanted and would not have gotten anywhere. Their purpose was to get into the undergate and they need the number of successes that their plan to get there takes, neither more nor less.
B. I don't have an arbitrary number of failures before the challenge is over or before there are consequences. In this example, any failure would have changed the situation and, depending upon what it was and how the players reacted, might have triggered the guards being called. For example, if the players had failed the bluff check when trying to get the crates to the supply room, the servant would have called his supervisor and if he wasn't bluffed he would have asked them to leave and called the guards if they didn't. In that case, two failures could have triggered the consequences of failure in the skill challenge. Now, the players could have tried to bribe him after that, getting a third chance at success before being kicked out and if they just left peacably, they could have attempted stealth to sneak back in giving them the potential to get three failures and still succeed but that depends upon what the players try and the circumstances in which they try them. (In fact, they could have attempted to bribe the first guy they failed to bluff as well, potentially acquiring four failures without the consequences of failure).
C. Players don't necessarily have the option to opt out (anyone who was at the party was going to have to do something every hour in order to avoid blowing their cover).
D. Players don't always have the option to choose any skill they want and are not necessarily limited to one skill per round of the skill challenge. Depending upon the situation, I may ask them to roll from a specific skill set. In this case, the deva used insight to try to figure out who their contact was; since that didn't cover blending in at the party, I asked for an additional skill check to cover that aspect of what he was doing. In the second "skill challenge" the party was infiltrating the fire knives' base. Rather than doing the normal skill challenge thing, I had the party member with the lowest stealth check roll stealth for the group (which is the usual way to resolve stealth for surprise when initiating combat encounters).
E. The story and storytelling elements rather than the die rolls are the controlling factors. For instance, in the later skill challenge, they players came to the fire knives hideout and decided to try a creative but really really lame story to explain what they were doing. They rolled a decent bluff check, but because it was not a decent bluff, I decided that it failed. To use a 3e example, if you are going to try a story as outlandish as "everyone knows that lammasu are trustworthy and I'm a lammasu polymorphed into a halfling so you should believe me" then rolling decently is not sufficient. The aspect of the skill challenge that I will still maintain is the no combat rule--otherwise the additional time to run a combat would usually cause the module to run too long. This may sound odd, but apparently it is not unusual. At the con where I recently ran Drag 1-3 in this manner, there were two other Drag 1-3 tables in the same room as me. They both finished about two hours earlier than my table did and when I talked with the players from those tables, it turned out that what the DMs there did was say, "OK, here's a skill challenge. Everyone roll a check. Good, we're done. Let's get on with the module." Neither one of them ran the skill challenges as written, they just had the players roll one die each and moved on to the combat. Skill challenges are an emperor's new clothes situation. The designers are convinced (if the podcasts are any indication) that they are a good idea and that they work. The RPGA staff either believe this or are forced to use them anyway (one author at the same convention confessed to me that it is very difficult to write a module without skill challenges--he submitted a module without a skill challenge but that a skill challenge had mysteriously appeared in the final version of the module). There are apparently some number of players and judges who believe what the designers tell them and pretend that the emperor has clothes. A lot of players and DMs, however, have quietly started ignoring them or house ruling them so heavily as to eliminate their essential design characteristics. Like my method of "running skill challenges" those house rules or alternate methods of running skill challenges are probably lacking in a lot of areas--I won't pretend to have a good generic mechanic for skill challenges--but it would be very difficult to come up with a worse mechanic than core skill challenge mechanic.
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11 months ago ::
May 26, 2009 - 2:02PM
#3
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I have stopped running skill challenges. I will describe the situation, let the party come up with a solution and assign success when they have done what is necessary to overcome the situation. Or, I will ask for skill checks from all of the players in order to deal with the situation.
i do pretty much the same thing. many times, i will let the players go about the problem as they would have in, say, previous editions of the game. it becomes fairly obvious when they have succeeded or failed. i do let players know this ahead of time, and i do let them know that failed rolls still have consequences so it's still not a good idea to run around using skills willy-nilly.
there are times when i will use the skill challenges largely as written, but only when it would actually make sense to have an "x number of successes before y number of failures" sort of situation.
non-lfr related, but i did find the skill challenge set up for the monster manual 2 game day mod interesting. i'm not sure if i like it or not, and i certainly wouldn't like to see every skill challenge set up in the same way, but it is interesting.
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11 months ago ::
May 26, 2009 - 2:20PM
#4
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I run skill challenges differently based on the table, time available and whether or not I can figure out a way to give the skill challenge fun RP aspects. If all the players are approaching the game mechanically - as just an excuse to hang out and roll dice - I don't put a lot of effort into making a scene come to life.
But in most cases I can walk people through a RP session describing the situation and improvising scenes. For example, in a skill challenge to convince a halfling gang leader to help you a suggested skill is Perception. So I had the halfling (doing a James Cagney impersonation) flipping a double-headed coin and saying "If I flip tails I'll help you". The perception check was to notice the coin and mention it - having a sharp eye impresses the halfling.
In another cases I gave a perception check notice someone in the bar watching the party and a streetwise to get information which led to the shopkeeper of "Broken Shard" pottery who was being harrassed by clerics of Bane while fellow shop keepers watched. An insight check determined the fellow shop keepers might help the fellow with a diplomacy/intimidate. All done somewhat on-the-fly in response to character's actions and adjusted based on outcomes.
So yes, I think skill challenges can be just "roll the dice". Or in most cases they can be fun, interactive RP encounters. Doesn't always work and sometimes there simply isn't enough time.
Allen.
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11 months ago ::
May 26, 2009 - 2:47PM
#5
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Good GMs handle them by describing a situation, asking how players approach it, and then use the skill suggestions written down as guidelines. They describe the effects of both successes and failures in detail and let people roleplay as long as they are having fun and time permits. They finish it when it's clear that it's over, and everyone enjoys it.
One of the GMs in this thread does seems to do exactly that by his description, but does not like calling it a "skill challenge". A lot of people have a negative impression caused by judges who are bad at such challenges. Bad judges do not allow any roleplaying, stick to the skills described only, make no attempt to make sure everyone is involved, force players to complete the challenge even when it's over, and generally prefer mechanics over roleplaying.
Treat it just like combat, namely: The rules are there to cover things that are commonly tried and obvious. The module describes standard tactics and likely outcomes, but the GM has the responsibility of modifying what goes on. Successes and failures should be described. If the combat is clearly over, call it -- don't force people to complete it when it's over, and generally prefer roleplaying over mechanics. Try and get everyone involved.
-Graham
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11 months ago ::
May 26, 2009 - 5:56PM
#6
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Good GMs handle them by describing a situation, asking how players approach it, and then use the skill suggestions written down as guidelines. They describe the effects of both successes and failures in detail and let people roleplay as long as they are having fun and time permits. They finish it when it's clear that it's over, and everyone enjoys it.
A really good DM will do that for people who want it that way, and will do the 3 minute roll-the-dice-and-get-on-with-it for people who'd prefer it that way. 
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11 months ago ::
May 26, 2009 - 5:58PM
#7
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Try and get everyone involved.
-Graham
Another thing I've been trying out lately (especially in mods with flexible RP-conducive skill challenges) is to ask people when they introduce their character to also tell me what skills they're good at. That way if Bob is only good in Acrobatics, Athletics and Endurance, I can try to think of a way it might come into play and give Bob a way to participate. Add a drinking contest to the challenge, or a chance for him to climb on top of a building to see something.
Allen.
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11 months ago ::
May 26, 2009 - 6:19PM
#8
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One of the things I like to do is try to make rolls happen as follows:
Most Involved Player gets to roll the assist.
Highest Mod Character with an Involved Player gets to roll the primary.
That way, the brutish Fighter can do a lot of talking during the diplomacy part without blowing up the skill challenge, because the high charisma bard will get to roll the primary. But he can't do it unless the high charisma bard does some of the talking, because if the bard doesn't, he'll make the roll.
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11 months ago ::
May 26, 2009 - 8:11PM
#9
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I won't pretend to have a good generic mechanic for skill challenges--but it would be very difficult to come up with a worse mechanic than core skill challenge mechanic.
The problem with skill challenges is trying to codify roleplaying and that's simply a mistake.
I think the way you are doing things is just fine and you should stick to it.
One thing they could have tried to do would have been to simply have the given skill challenge system as one option of how to frame things. Another would be something along the lines of X successes before Y rounds expire, while yet another would be avoiding W failures over the course of Z rounds on an individual scale, etc.
But honestly the best way to handle it is simply to throw it out and just have an obstacle to be overcome via skills & roleplaying.
-James
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11 months ago ::
May 27, 2009 - 1:22AM
#10
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But you were running a skill challenge. It really does not matter whether you call it RP, dabidah or a skill challenge. You let your players know the goal of the challenge and the setting. You then let your players decide on a course of action, asking for a skill checks based on their actions, and then react based on those rolls. You even thought about what actions would result in failure, and how three failures would result in failing the challenge. The only thing you might have changed is the number of successes needed, but that should be a good guideline and in my experience when the right complexity was picked it is almost always reached if you follow the natural flow of the encounter. It is the perfect example of how a social skill challenge should be run.
The problem with skill challenges is that many DMs read the DMG, and its rather bad examples, and then conclude they have to follow those to the letter. It is a mechanism that give some good guidelines on how to assign xp to non-combat challenges and which skills to use without it being totally arbitrary and by giving the players the sense that they are using their skills for something worthwhile. In a home campaign you as a DM might be able to ignore such xp and challenge guidelines, but in Living Greyhawk granting xp to anything but fights was virtually impossible to do fairly (and hence it was forbidden).
Side note on DRAG1-3: The intent of the long list of NPCs was NOT to talk with all of them. It was a list of people a DM could use to spice up the encounter, and to pick what ever NPC the players or the DM took an interest in.
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