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4 years ago ::
Jun 18, 2009 - 8:43PM
#471
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And, since we don't have the write-up yet, we don't yet know if Kelemvor will be "responsible" for revenants in the Realms. It may well be that another FR deity (such as Jergal, as others have suggested) is given that responsibility.
Just because Kelemvor is the "substitute" for the Raven Queen for rules purposes (such as Channel Divinity feats and paragon paths) does not mean that they are in all ways equivalent.
"Of course [Richard] has a knife. He always has a knife. We all have knives. It's 1183, and we're barbarians!" - Eleanor of Aquitaine, "The Lion in Winter"
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4 years ago ::
Jun 18, 2009 - 9:51PM
#472
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Well, if you really want to split hairs:
1) There is no Living keyword
2) There's no monster writeup yet so we don't know if they have the undead keyword (I think they would or maybe they may make a new keyword for them). Although they do list Undead in their racial properties. Consider Eladrin and Elves have Fey in their racial properties and the Fey keyword in their monster write ups, I think it would be safe to assume that they do have the undead keyword.
3) You can always try to argue that, since they do not have a monster write up they can't have the undead keyword since player races don't "officially" have keywords listed for them.
So... yeah... 
I guess subconsciously I kept thinking there should be a Living keyword after all we have Living constructs and the Undead keyword it would also help to clarify whether something is being magically animated or being possessed by a living spirit to give it life.
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4 years ago ::
Jun 18, 2009 - 11:42PM
#473
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Date Joined:
May 11, 2005
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No. Read the relevant excepts from Faiths and Pantheons I posted earlier in the thread. There are NO exceptions.
Your quotes:
"Kelemovr views all undead as abominations, ordering his servants to destroy them at every turn."
"Clerics of Kelemvor consider all undead abominations and do whatever they can to put them to eternal rest. They contend that those who create undead are fit only for swift and utter destruction."
Yes, it says 'all'. Bu the word 'all' is used all over the place, and surprisingly, we keep running into exceptions.
It really does not break canon to add 'There are exceptions'.
There are ALWAYS exceptions.
It is really up to you to see it. If you don't, that is your choice, and nobody else's.
Gomez
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4 years ago ::
Jun 19, 2009 - 1:09AM
#474
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Date Joined:
Feb 16, 2008
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Your quotes:
Yes, it says 'all'. Bu the word 'all' is used all over the place, and surprisingly, we keep running into exceptions.
It really does not break canon to add 'There are exceptions'.
There are ALWAYS exceptions.
Which part of "ALL Undead" do you not comprehend?
It is really up to you to see it. If you don't, that is your choice, and nobody else's.
Gomez
No, the Lore is quite clear. "ALL Undead".
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4 years ago ::
Jun 19, 2009 - 1:49AM
#475
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The same part that has added good aligned and neutral demons and devils in Planescape and non evil red dragons in older FR versions. The same part that realizes that storytelling is often about exceptions and that the PCs are by definition exceptions. The same part that realizes that a D&D game is based on same basic concepts that hold up in life (otherwise it becomes really difficult to relate to the world) which includes the fact that people do not ALL share the same opinion. Somebody on here even pointed out how a Kalemvorite could argue within church dogma when an undead would be acceptable.
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4 years ago ::
Jun 19, 2009 - 1:58AM
#476
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Date Joined:
Feb 16, 2008
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The same part that has added good aligned and neutral demons and devils in Planescape and non evil red dragons in older FR versions. The same part that realizes that storytelling is often about exceptions and that the PCs are by definition exceptions. The same part that realizes that a D&D game is based on same basic concepts that hold up in life (otherwise it becomes really difficult to relate to the world) which includes the fact that people do not ALL share the same opinion. Somebody on here even pointed out how a Kalemvorite could argue within church dogma when an undead would be acceptable.
"Kelemovr views all undead as abominations, ordering his servants to destroy them at every turn."
"Clerics of Kelemvor consider all undead abominations and do whatever they can to put them to eternal rest. They contend that those who create undead are fit only for swift and utter destruction."
Now you're just trying to argue that black is white, tbh.
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4 years ago ::
Jun 19, 2009 - 2:06AM
#477
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Not white, just grey.
To continue the metaphor, there is no such thing as true black or true white, only shades of grey.
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4 years ago ::
Jun 19, 2009 - 3:21AM
#478
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Date Joined:
Feb 16, 2008
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Not white, just grey.
To continue the metaphor, there is no such thing as true black or true white, only shades of grey.
In Real Life, yes. But in the Realms, which is NOT Real Life, but where LFR takes place, the Kelemvorite attitude to undead is expressly true black/true white.
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4 years ago ::
Jun 19, 2009 - 3:49AM
#479
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Date Joined:
May 11, 2005
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In Real Life, yes. But in the Realms, which is NOT Real Life, but where LFR takes place, the Kelemvorite attitude to undead is expressly true black/true white.
It is your choice to view it that way.
Almost everyone else in this thread chooses to view it as:
"all undead... not including exceptions."
The whole point of exceptions is that the 'normal' rule applies to everything or everyone - *except* for them.
All devils are evil - but there are exceptions.
All dragons have a breath weapon - but there are exceptions.
Kelemvorites kill all undead on sight - but there are exceptions.
The only thing stopping people to accept this, which always exists, all the time, in any world, regardless fantasy or real life, is that they choose to not accept this. It has nothing to do with breaking lore, especially not in the Realms, which, as Ed Greenwood would love to point out, is definitely not black-and-white (examples of which you can find back in several Dalelands adventures).
If you don't want to believe that, fine. But it is your choice. The setting doesn't force you to. It never has.
Gomez
who never found te words 'no exceptions', or 'true black and white' in any realms source.
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4 years ago ::
Jun 19, 2009 - 4:19AM
#480
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Date Joined:
Feb 16, 2008
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Sigh. The Lore and Setting is quite clear on this subject. How many times does "ALL Undead" need to be explained to you? It means precisely that. "ALL Undead". You're just being deliberately disingenious now.
And never mind the fact that, without a canon reference, Revenants have sod all to do with the Realms!
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