I played a PC in LG that had an intense hatred of Orcs, and who thought half-orcs were just as bad, believing that the only good Orc was a dead one. He managed to play just fine at tables with half-orcs. I could always RP a reason why he would go along with the team-up. The inflexibility of some players/DMs just leads me to believe that they need to get the stick out of their rear ends and loosen up and have some fun.
Look, see, he can insult people. How precocious. Two can play that game. Look, it's fun:
"The insistence of certain players/DMs that concerns for the integrity of the setting are nothing more than a psychological problem might leads one to believe that they need to go back to playing world of warcraft where they can play whatever kewl l33t freak they want and let the rest of us enjoy the game."
At this point, it's all pretty moot. Limiting monster PCs now would be closing the barn door after the minotaurs have left. The only way to deal with it is either to ignore it entirely or find another campaign that actually supports serious role-play.
One of the sticking points is that while it's really possible to come up with a cohesive, sensible explanation on how any given race might be a part of a campaign setting, the powers that be have made absolutely no attempt to do so for LFR.
I know why WotC development doesn't do this - it isn't their job. They aren't making product for LFR players - they're making product for home games, where it is the DM's responsibility to adapt and adjust new content to fit his or her campaign as they see fit.
What I cannot fathom is why folks in charge of the LFR side of the fence either aren't taking up, or being allowed to take up, this responsibility, in any way, shape or form. Options and races are just being shoehorned in without any regard at all to roleplaying reasons, setting considerations, or glaring incongruities.
No explanation, no backstory, just a confused jumble of more and more stuff being crammed into the suitcase that is LFR.
I could understand if this was some pure boardgame or tactical miniatures campaign.
But this isn't. It's Dungeons & Dragons.
It's a role playing game.
Reasons matter. Backstory matters. How everything fits together matters. Why matters.
It wouldn't even take that much. A short adaption document, briefly summarizing the races and classes allowed in LFR and how they fit into the setting, no more than a paragraph or so per item. SOMETHING other than resounding silence.
As it is, this mishmash of stuff really does a major disservice to the Forgotten Realms setting, and the quality of roleplaying in the RPGA overall.
I mean, a large number of non-RPGA folks express the sentiment that RPGA people are powergaming cheeseweasels that wouldn't know roleplay if it bit them in the arse. This kinda thing? Isn't helping that reputation.
-karma
LFR Characters: Lady Tiana Elinden Kobori Silverwane - Drow Control Wizard Kro'tak Warscream - Orc Bard Fulcrum of Gond - Warforged Laser Cleric
One of the sticking points is that while it's really possible to come up with a cohesive, sensible explanation on how any given race might be a part of a campaign setting, the powers that be have made absolutely no attempt to do so for LFR.
I know why WotC development doesn't do this - it isn't their job. They aren't making product for LFR players - they're making product for home games, where it is the DM's responsibility to adapt and adjust new content to fit his or her campaign as they see fit.
What I cannot fathom is why folks in charge of the LFR side of the fence either aren't taking up, or being allowed to take up, this responsibility, in any way, shape or form. Options and races are just being shoehorned in without any regard at all to roleplaying reasons, setting considerations, or glaring incongruities.
No explanation, no backstory, just a confused jumble of more and more stuff being crammed into the suitcase that is LFR.
I could understand if this was some pure boardgame or tactical miniatures campaign.
But this isn't. It's Dungeons & Dragons.
It's a role playing game.
Reasons matter. Backstory matters. How everything fits together matters. Why matters.
It wouldn't even take that much. A short adaption document, briefly summarizing the races and classes allowed in LFR and how they fit into the setting, no more than a paragraph or so per item. SOMETHING other than resounding silence.
As it is, this mishmash of stuff really does a major disservice to the Forgotten Realms setting, and the quality of roleplaying in the RPGA overall.
I mean, a large number of non-RPGA folks express the sentiment that RPGA people are powergaming cheeseweasels that wouldn't know roleplay if it bit them in the arse. This kinda thing? Isn't helping that reputation.
-karma
I wouldnt mind some "pointers" to help out the ROLL-PLAYERS along, BUT i would not want anyone predetermining my characters back story, because once they did it no longer is my character, this is the Challenge of taking these monster races, coming up with a creative way to explain why they do what they do and how they do it maintaining the HERO quality rather than the villian label. I dont think these monster races effect the settng at all, as metioned before there is always a case of the dark hero in the realms, and whos to say that they are not working on a story set about a grou of monsters that all of a sudden find Kelmvor and decide to be good and make up for thier wrongs (my name is earl anyone?) the problem is not the material available in the game its the gamers that use teh material, It should be required if you take a monster race you need to have an intelligent back ground for said character. there should be a reason for why this monster has turned hero! some players do a great job at this (see above posts) and playing with them is awsome and it fits the setting and the role playing is the best... however some people show up to the table and plop thier character sheet on the table and say "im gorogg the monster, point me to what you want me to kill" "well grogg, why are you helping this group of people" "umm because i get to kill stuff, and if the commoners dont like it ill use my +50 intimidate to scare them out of m way" this is when i dislike playing with characters that are monster races, but all players should not be penalized because a few players cant be creative enouph to explain "WHY" thier monster is now a hero and should be trusted.
Who knows one day maybe we will be at a village were the barkeep tells about how a few towns down the river a Minatour Gorogg slain the evil dragon, and they have a horned goblet drink they toast to whenever someone speaks his name?
Look, see, he can insult people. How precocious. Two can play that game. Look, it's fun:
Aaaand you just proved my point.
"The insistence of certain players/DMs that concerns for the integrity of the setting are nothing more than a psychological problem might leads one to believe that they need to go back to playing world of warcraft where they can play whatever kewl l33t freak they want and let the rest of us enjoy the game."
You do realize that any point you might have to make immediately becomes discounted when you bring up WoW, right?
At this point, it's all pretty moot. Limiting monster PCs now would be closing the barn door after the minotaurs have left. The only way to deal with it is either to ignore it entirely or find another campaign that actually supports serious role-play.
And what, pray tell, is "serious roleplay?" Does every mod have to be a melodramatic lesson in method acting to be serious role play? Is finding an IC reason why your PC would work with a rag tag group of other PCs not serious role play? Is serious role play being totally inflexible to the point where your head explodes if something isn't exactly the way you want it?
KarmaInferno wrote:
One of the sticking points is that while it's really possible to come up with a cohesive, sensible explanation on how any given race might be a part of a campaign setting, the powers that be have made absolutely no attempt to do so for LFR.
I know why WotC development doesn't do this - it isn't their job. They aren't making product for LFR players - they're making product for home games, where it is the DM's responsibility to adapt and adjust new content to fit his or her campaign as they see fit.
What I cannot fathom is why folks in charge of the LFR side of the fence either aren't taking up, or being allowed to take up, this responsibility, in any way, shape or form. Options and races are just being shoehorned in without any regard at all to roleplaying reasons, setting considerations, or glaring incongruities.
No explanation, no backstory, just a confused jumble of more and more stuff being crammed into the suitcase that is LFR.
It's a role playing game.
Reasons matter. Backstory matters. How everything fits together matters. Why matters.
It wouldn't even take that much. A short adaption document, briefly summarizing the races and classes allowed in LFR and how they fit into the setting, no more than a paragraph or so per item. SOMETHING other than resounding silence.
You're right, it's not really WotC's job. I would hazard a guess that the RPGA isn't allowed to do so either simply because they don't want something done that could interfere in anything they may write themselves. (same reason they go over the modules for LFR)
The thing is, most things already have been given an explanation, or suggestions, for just such a thing. First off, Gnolls and Minotaurs have been in the FR as long as the setting's been around. It's not that big a stretch to believe that there may be a "Drizzt" among those races. Shifters got an entry in the FRPG. Warforged got an article in Dragon suggesting many ways they could be integrated into the FR. Shadar-Kai and gnomes are already there. That really just leaves Revenants. Do they really need a specific integration? They're story fits into just any setting without much explanation.
I guess I'm at a loss over how we are lacking in any sort of official explanations for how any of the races fit int he Realms.
Sorry WOTC, you lost me with Essentials. So where I used to buy every book that came out, now I will be very choosy about what I buy. Can we just get back to real 4e?
1. Wizards fight dirty. They hit their enemies in the NADs. -- Dragon9 2. A barbarian hits people with his axe. A warlord hits people with his barbarian. 3. Boo-freakin'-hoo, ya light-slingin' finger-wigglers. -- MrCelcius in response to the Cleric's Healer's Lore nerf
You do realize that any point you might have to make immediately becomes discounted when you bring up WoW, right?
You do realize that I stopped paying attention about what you might say or think when you said anyone who disagrees with you has a stick shoved up their nether regions and needs to lighten up, don't you? If you were to say that in person, the only rational response would be to cuss you out and walk away. Intelligent dialogue is impossible once someone has determined that he's right about everything and everyone else is just a moron with psychological problems. The whole point of it was to copy what you said and change the target to demonstrate how pointlessly insulting it is. (And before you say, don't take it personally, how the heck is it supposed to be taken if not personally?) I included WoW in the attempt to write something as stereotypically stupid as your post. Apparently it worked.
In this case, I'm probably being unfair to WoW. Previous posts indicate that alliance players hanging out in horde areas have trouble and vise versa. Come to think of it, Neverwinter Nights mods frequently code dialogue and triggers for what happens if your character race, class, or alignment happens to be germane to the situation. So, it seems that video games do a better job of creating a reactive world than LFR is doing at the moment. It's pretty sad if we're wishing there were more roleplaying... like in WoW.
On the other hand, it's pretty hard to take you seriously when the only options you can imagine in the world are:
A.
Does every mod have to be a melodramatic lesson in method acting to be serious role play? Is finding an IC reason why your PC would work with a rag tag group of other PCs not serious role play? Is serious role play being totally inflexible to the point where your head explodes if something isn't exactly the way you want it?
or
B. Having undead clerics of Kelemvor, half-vampires, drow, minotaurs, gnolls, and robots wandering into towns that have been repeatedly attacked by gnolls only to be asked, "hey, [Insert PC group name here] can you solve our gnoll problem for us?"
Now WotC may be determined to destroy any sense of the FR setting, new or old by insisting that every bit of every kitchen sink they publish everywhere be fitted into LFR. They may have explicitly told the campaign staff, "this must be the way it is." But that doesn't change the fact that there is no reflection of setting feel among PCs and that it is getting worse with every new widget they cram in rather than better.
Reasons matter. Backstory matters. How everything fits together matters. Why matters.
Reasons matter for some of us. Backstory matters for some of us. How everything fits together matters for some of us.
Anyone for whom backstory matters can and will make one that works for them. Anyone else doesn't care.
I've given my own LFR warforged PCs a valid and detailed backstory that makes them fit in the world. I don't even tell it to most people, because nobody has really demonstrated that they care to this point.
You can make a reasonable backstory for any character. Revenant-dhamphyr cleric of Kelemvor? No problem - just make it internally consistent.
I've said this on the SEUSA Yahoo group as well. The designers have made it clear that this edition of the game is not about recreating reality (the way 3.5 did). They aren't trying to design rules that work at the global cultural sociological political economical etc. level. They are making rules that are fun to play at the table.
When we look at much of 4E or LFR, the logic just fails to work. The relative power escalation at 1st level, let alone common racial features (fey step and jails, for example) would radically alter society at all levels. A town commoner minion can work out all they want, they will still get killed in a tavern brawl with any adventurer. The minion sherrif? Forget about it. Little minion kids getting in a fight at school? Nothing works at the global level.
The game works at the table level, where it is a tale of 4-6 adventurers with diverse and interesting backgrounds who perform heroic deeds. If one is a drow, one a gnoll, and one part-machine, that still works. It works because we are working together to create a fun game around these 4-6 people, not all of the society and all other adventuring tables.
When you sit at the table, there should be the common understanding that we are all playing heroes. Some might be a bit darker, but the idea is there - heroes nonetheless. And, therefore, the players should not be penalized. Now, they can be rewarded for this. If players want to have fun with a bit of tension between the dwarves and elves and the drow, cool. But, it isn't right for a DM to state that the player of race x is hosed, is mistreated, doesn't get to do abc, etc. Equal opportunity is part of the game, which works just fine at the table level.
Example: Weird diverse team starts in a mod in a small village. Why aren't they getting stoned to death? Well, because they prove their worth. They approach cautiously, win over the town, perform a minor service, etc. Role-playing this out each and every game would be boring. It is just a background assumption.
B. Having undead clerics of Kelemvor, half-vampires, drow, minotaurs, gnolls, and robots wandering into towns that have been repeatedly attacked by gnolls only to be asked, "hey, [Insert PC group name here] can you solve our gnoll problem for us?"
Now WotC may be determined to destroy any sense of the FR setting, new or old by insisting that every bit of every kitchen sink they publish everywhere be fitted into LFR. They may have explicitly told the campaign staff, "this must be the way it is." But that doesn't change the fact that there is no reflection of setting feel among PCs and that it is getting worse with every new widget they cram in rather than better.
The problem tho is the DM's not WotC, They make the material, the Dm's run the session and make it Fit. If the Dm doesnt do a good enouph job to notice that the players group consists of gnolls and not have the towns folk scared of them! would be Bad DMing. If I was to DM the above scenario, the gnoll character would immediately be arrested and the group would need to Role play getting him out, perhaps Offering the Gnoll player to infiltrate the evil gnolls and protect the town (Terminator anyone? LOL)
My point is I understand were you are coming from i think tho you are aiming your frustrations at the wrong target, Its not WotC ruining The realms. Its Bad players ruining your individual game sessions, Im sure if you played with a group (and especially a DM) that took into count monster races you would have alot better experience. and it would be easy to just say "no more" it would be unfair to those few players that play the monster races correctly.
