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4 years ago ::
May 29, 2009 - 11:46AM
#11
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[snip]
What you do as a player at tables with others who abuse Unicorn's Touch is entirely your prerogative. Just remember that as a DM, your job is to facilitate the fun of the players. If the players are following the rules and are having fun, why stop them? You have other options to keep the game challenging, many of them have already been stated in this thread.
As usual, I have to agree with Dave. Yes, Unicorn's Touch is a little broken -- but there are several other feats/powers that are more broken/unbalancing -- Righteous Rage of Tempus and Guileful Switch to name 2. But these "broken" powers work the way they are written -- it really is not within DME to nerf them -- at least not for a LFR game. Besides an overeach of DME, it is also unfair to the player. They picked the power over other choices because of the way it works. It is unfair to change the rules on them.
More importantly, as Dave notes, LFR and 4.0 is explicitly about the players having fun. Who cares if the power is a little broken? Does it inhibit your fun as a DM that players can heal in that way? 4.0 is quite clearly not set up as DM v. players. I also think the whole "at my table" DMing should be avoided. Let the players have their fun.
Daren
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4 years ago ::
May 29, 2009 - 11:56AM
#12
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I have a level 10 eladrin swordmage and took Unicorn's touch in place of a level 10 utility. I also took armathor's step at 6 (I just love teleports).
I took unicorn's touch for the ability to give myself or someone else a saving throw, or the off chance to get a leader back up to single digits so they can heal themselves. Mostly I think the ability to give saving throws is one of the most important and overlooked abilities in the game, and swordmages don't have the crazy ability of Font of Life.
I agree that its surgeless healing can be a problem. dkay's suggestion of switching it for only on bloodied targets would be a solid fix I think.
Personally though, if my table was having an extremely rough time I might do the multiple short rest thing. (Example: if we all fought a bunch of wights and after a couple encounters some people have no surges left or something.) I wouldn't do it if the GM objected, but sometimes I think other players at the table will have more fun if they're not screwed (again this would be a very rare occasion).
To wotc: as someone who has actually taken the power, I'm totally cool with fixing this power. As long as it still gives the save I'd pretty much be content.
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4 years ago ::
May 29, 2009 - 12:00PM
#13
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As usual, I have to agree with Dave. Yes, Unicorn's Touch is a little broken -- but there are several other feats/powers that are more broken/unbalancing -- Righteous Rage of Tempus and Guileful Switch to name 2.
Daren
I agree with this statement wholehartedly though. I don't think for the most part that unicorn's touch will break modules, but RRoT and Guileful switch and bloodclaw weapons and the like do. It would be kind of weird to me if they errata this before RRoT or Guileful, but I guess people base entire characters around RRoT. (Honestly though with Guileful: warlords are so awsome they really don't have any place to complain if it say gets changed to a daily.)
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4 years ago ::
May 29, 2009 - 12:05PM
#14
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Date Joined:
Jun 10, 2004
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Perhaps I am applying the golden rule where I probably shouldn't and approaching this as I would want a judge to approach it if the roles were reversed. If I was a table with a judge who had a problem with one of my character's abilities I would prefer the judge just be up front with me and explain the restrictions. I find nerfing via story related DMEing much more annoying than an honest, "please don't do that". In the scenario I described the player of the swordmage just said, "Okay, I'll just take Dimentional Warp instead". This is exactly what I would have done.
The mod in question only has 2 encounters so throwing the next/last one at them early doesn't really work. As a player would you prefer the fairly contrived, "someone comes and interrupts your rest" over a straight forward denial?
Also, thanks Mike for coming forward with that admission/rumor. Some people don't understand broken even when it's slapping them in the face.
The reason why Unicorn's Touch is more of problem than RRoT or Rain of Blows is simple. Doing lots of damage, moreso than expected, kills things fast but ultimately that's all it does. Neither of these "broken" abilities completely undermines a cornerstone of the game's design.
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4 years ago ::
May 29, 2009 - 12:16PM
#15
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Date Joined:
Mar 29, 2001
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You misunderstand. Nobody is saying it isn't 'broken'.
It very well may be.
But this isn't your home game. This is the RPGA.
You are expected to run LFR games according to the published rules.
The players have a reasonable right to know what to expect at any given LFR game, and random DMs changing or throwing out rules as they see fit does not accomplish this.
If there's a problem, report it as a bug. Hoefully with enough reports it will get errata'd.
In the meanwhile it's the rules.
-karma
(really, how different is it from back in 3rd edition where everyone would yank out their super-cheap wands of CLW between every fight?)
LFR Characters:
Lady Tiana Elinden Kobori Silverwane - Drow Control Wizard
Kro'tak Warscream - Orc Bard
Fulcrum of Gond - Warforged Laser Cleric
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4 years ago ::
May 29, 2009 - 12:17PM
#16
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The reason why Unicorn's Touch is more of problem than RRoT or Rain of Blows is simple. Doing lots of damage, moreso than expected, kills things fast but ultimately that's all it does. Neither of these "broken" abilities completely undermines a cornerstone of the game's design.
I see what you're saying, but I disagree, especially in the context of LFR. LFR modules are generally 2-4 combats, rarely 5, so surges are less important than in a home game. In a home game the surgeless healing thing will be a much bigger deal.
The concept of surges is one of the better ideas of 4th ed in my opinion, and the endurance trial aspect of D&D is far better now than in previous editions. In previous editions, it was mostly just obnoxious, now it's more like use better tactics and so forth.
Overall though, throwing insane amounts of damage out quickly is far more imbalancing. When combats last 2 rounds, people really don't need to spend many surges in the first place. There is an expectation of the amount of damage PCs can do in 4th ed; a built in power-curve expectation that when shattered kind of messes up the balance of the game. Abilities such as guileful switch and righteous rage of tempus do this.
So in concept I see where you're coming from but in reality I really disagree.
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4 years ago ::
May 29, 2009 - 12:18PM
#17
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The mod in question only has 2 encounters so throwing the next/last one at them early doesn't really work.
Though, if the module only has 2 combat encounters anyway...wouldn't it be highly unlikely that PCs would be in danger of running low on healing surges in the first place?
"Of course [Richard] has a knife. He always has a knife. We all have knives. It's 1183, and we're barbarians!" - Eleanor of Aquitaine, "The Lion in Winter"
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4 years ago ::
May 29, 2009 - 12:21PM
#18
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Date Joined:
Jun 10, 2004
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(really, how different is it from back in 3rd edition where everyone would yank out their super-cheap wands of CLW between every fight?)
Because one of the things that 4e was supposed to fix was the scenario you just described. Unicorn's Touch starts it all over again (hence the breaking cornerstone of game's design comment).
You're correct that straight up denying someone from repeatidly using encounter powers outside of combat is outside the scope of DME but doing so within the story is not. So I ask, assuming the power had to be dealt with, would you prefer to be constantly assaulted by small groups of thug-minions during your short rests or my original approach.
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4 years ago ::
May 29, 2009 - 12:28PM
#19
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Because one of the things that 4e was supposed to fix was the scenario you just described. Unicorn's Touch starts it all over again (hence the breaking cornerstone of game's design comment).
You're correct that straight up denying someone from repeatidly using encounter powers outside of combat is outside the scope of DME but doing so within the story is not. So I ask, assuming the power had to be dealt with, would you prefer to be constantly assaulted by small groups of thug-minions during your short rests or my original approach.
I would prefer that the DM accepts the fact that the power is broken and just swallows it when players use it for whatever reason. He can even go so far as to let them know that he doesn't appreciate the way in which it can be abused and ask them not to do so, but at the risk of getting his request denied.
You're not a designer. Like it or hate it, the power exists and will be used until it is changed.
Dave Kay
LFR Writing Director Retiree
dkay807 [at] yahoo [dot] com
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4 years ago ::
May 29, 2009 - 12:31PM
#20
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Date Joined:
Mar 29, 2001
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Neither.
You should let players do what is perfectly legal by the rules.
It may be broken. It may scream THIS IS COMPLETELY UNBALANCED to you. You may be entirely correct in saying that it needs to be fixed.
You can indeed do so in your home games. Heck, I'd probably limit the power in mine.
But I repeat, this isn't your home game. Wait for it to be errata'd.
At best, you might state to the players that it is broken, and you would PREFER that they not do it.
-karma
LFR Characters:
Lady Tiana Elinden Kobori Silverwane - Drow Control Wizard
Kro'tak Warscream - Orc Bard
Fulcrum of Gond - Warforged Laser Cleric
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