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Switch to Forum Live View What do players want more of?
4 years ago  ::  May 21, 2009 - 11:17AM #141
Telvin3d
  • Fool of Win
Date Joined: Apr 29, 2008
Posts: 835
I'd really like the campaign to stop doing sequel adventures in the same level band two or more quarters later and without any advance warning. Do they really not expect anyone to level in the six months between modules?

The Byar's Seven major quest in the DALE modules is a perfect example of this. DALE 1-2 is one of my players favourite modules. It was very well received and everyone was interested in the mystery of Byar's Seven. However, in the seven months between modules, they are no longer level 5. They are level 8 or 9. So why is the sequel designed so that no one who has played the first part can complete it?
This little signature is my official and insignificant protest to the (not so new now) community redesign.

The layout is lousy. The colour scheme burns the eyes. The wiki is a crippled monstrosity. So many posters have abandoned this site that some major forums are going days without posts. The 4e General Discussion board regularly has posts on the front page from two or even three days ago. This is pathetic.

Since I have to assume Wizards has a vested interest in an active community I wish someone in charge would fix this mess.
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4 years ago  ::  May 21, 2009 - 12:44PM #142
Keith53
Date Joined: Aug 21, 2007
Posts: 1,282
I think in general, the Writing Directors have been uncertain as to how fast PCs would advance in levels (and it does vary markedly by player), and how to develop a strategy for unfolding a plot or series of plots (story arcs) in LFR. There was not a lot of upfront guidance.

In discussing story arcs for Waterdeep with our fellow regional admins, one pointed out that if we recommended to players a "prequel," with the replay rules, a gamer could elect to replay that adventure with a new character who would be able to progress through a tighter story arc, than was possible to present at the start of the campaign. It is not a perfect solution, but it seems like a useful approach.

Given the limited number of regional adventures (7 the first year, 5 after that, assuming you get your bonus adventure) and the adventure's shelf life (year one adventures will retire in Dec 2011), that will be a slow rate of advancement to play in only one region, assuming we stuck to low level adventures.

Keith
Keith Hoffman
LFR Writing Director for Waterdeep
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4 years ago  ::  May 21, 2009 - 1:37PM #143
Mithreinmaethor
Date Joined: May 23, 2005
Posts: 3,130

Keith53 wrote:

I think in general, the Writing Directors have been uncertain as to how fast PCs would advance in levels (and it does vary markedly by player), and how to develop a strategy for unfolding a plot or series of plots (story arcs) in LFR. There was not a lot of upfront guidance.

In discussing story arcs for Waterdeep with our fellow regional admins, one pointed out that if we recommended to players a "prequel," with the replay rules, a gamer could elect to replay that adventure with a new character who would be able to progress through a tighter story arc, than was possible to present at the start of the campaign. It is not a perfect solution, but it seems like a useful approach.

Given the limited number of regional adventures (7 the first year, 5 after that, assuming you get your bonus adventure) and the adventure's shelf life (year one adventures will retire in Dec 2011), that will be a slow rate of advancement to play in only one region, assuming we stuck to low level adventures.

Keith


Hence the need for a Meta-region. And you forget the Core modules and any Adaptables and Specials as well.

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4 years ago  ::  May 28, 2009 - 12:30PM #144
Eberhart
Date Joined: Oct 27, 2008
Posts: 1
What do I want out of LFR and 4th ED D&D?

First and foremost more roleplaying. The current modules feel canned and focused on the fight. After all, all the powers in 4th ed are encounter based and the feel of the game is more towards a warhammer 40K mini-fight than a roleplaying experience.

Second; Do not write modules that are supposed to be based on common knowledge when they are not. One of the Dragon Born mods turned my stomach.

The mod starts with a bunch of dragon born ignoring another dragon born get mauled. The party is supposed to help the under dog. Later on you find out that the underdog dragon born has been stripped of his honor and is casteless.

the party is given two options help him or not. If you play a Dragon born and want to play your character as honorable and noble you should turn your back on this scum.

If you do that you end the mod. Talk about a rail road situation.

If you are going to work a mod around a race please put out a race supplement book.
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4 years ago  ::  Aug 29, 2009 - 3:39AM #145
brightbane
Date Joined: Sep 11, 2007
Posts: 170

What do I want to see?


Set items to drop! Like Eldritch Panolopy or something Cool

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4 years ago  ::  Sep 01, 2009 - 4:09PM #146
Istaran
Date Joined: Sep 21, 2006
Posts: 3,265

I want more enemies.


Or more precisely, I want less APL +4 enemies, less paragon enemies in heroic, and more numbers of lower level enemies in general.


APL +4 enemies versus APL -1 parties (i.e. level 1s playing low in 1-4 mods, or a party of 11s just entering paragon) take the typical nominal 50% hit rate and turn it into 75% for the enemy hitting the PCs and 25% for the PCs hitting the enemy. Leader bonuses to offset this often require hits (making them unreliable, and even more so when the target is very hard to hit), the same for debuffs. A less than optimized character or one with a bad matchup of attacks/defenses can end up facing 5-15% hit rates and 85-95% rates of being hit; occassionally we even see monster leader/controller support working to tip the balance in that fashion. If a sub-optimal character is facing 5% hit rates and an optimal character is facing 20% hit rates (we'll say the difference is 16 vs 20 starting attack stat and the op char has expertise pre level 15) then at a first glance the op character is being 4 times as effective! Isn't that kind of the opposite of what we want in LFR?


Paragon PCs have a huge jump in effectiveness and so do paragon monsters. There is a slight balancing effect on monsters in that many have raised vulnerabilities. So many things like ongoing damage, resistances, etc. jump by 5 points between level 10 and level 11. But PCs have a number of features that scale up substancially at paragon, gain access to substantially better feats, multiple paragon path features at 11, a bump to all attributes, etc. Throwing in level 13 elites at level 7-10 does a lot to highlight the discrepancy, even if you down-level the paragon monster (as downleveling doesn't change a lot of what makes it a paragon monster).


If players skip the PHB2 feats for accuracy and defenses, there is about a 4 point difference in growth between PCs and monsters from level 1-30. At the same time, most characters gain in their ability to engage larger numbers of enemies. So slowly dropping the relative level of monsters from say level +2 to level -2, while accordingly doubling their numbers keeps the attacks/defenses on par while making for more epic fights. The authors need to decide whether to target char op'd characters for difficulty or more general characters. The arms race will lead to only min-max'd characters being able to succeed at higher levels, while aiming to challenge less optimized builds will duly punish the min-maxing players by depriving them of a challenge. This can help keep expertise and the epic defenses feats from becoming a feat tax.

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4 years ago  ::  Sep 02, 2009 - 6:44AM #147
MatteBlack
Date Joined: Dec 21, 2006
Posts: 904

I think I want more adventures and play opportunities per level. I guess that might translate to less XP per adventure. Granted, I played Spec 1-2 when I was only a fwew XP short of paragon and played special mods and one ones with quest rewards on high but, I found my self levelling through paragon every mod or two which seeem s a bit too fast to me.


Lee

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4 years ago  ::  Sep 02, 2009 - 1:24PM #148
Vamroc
Date Joined: Feb 6, 2006
Posts: 790

May 21, 2009 -- 11:17AM, Telvin3d wrote:

I'd really like the campaign to stop doing sequel adventures in the same level band two or more quarters later and without any advance warning. Do they really not expect anyone to level in the six months between modules? The Byar's Seven major quest in the DALE modules is a perfect example of this. DALE 1-2 is one of my players favourite modules. It was very well received and everyone was interested in the mystery of Byar's Seven. However, in the seven months between modules, they are no longer level 5. They are level 8 or 9. So why is the sequel designed so that no one who has played the first part can complete it?




The answer to this is a cap where the PC can play any adventure up to his level band so if I've got a 7th charactor he'd be able to play low teir 7-8 and all the other teirs from 1-7 but not high teir 9-10 because his level is not within the teir needed to play it at that level. When the PC reaches Paragon level they can't play any Heroic teir adventures unless the adventure is the conclusion to a major quest.       

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4 years ago  ::  Sep 02, 2009 - 2:20PM #149
warfteiner
  • Fool of Win
Date Joined: Jun 21, 2007
Posts: 422

Hey all -


 


Thanks for all the input.  I've been pretty quiet since posting this, but rest assured that many, many people in the RPGA and WotC are taking notice of the things in this thread (and of course, the rest of the boards).  I'm sure that many of you noticed the not-so-subtle change to the Origins/ GenCon quest card that was recently released for the MINI, among other changes.


One of you recently suggested a change to the combat system: ie, seeing more opponents as opposed to the n+3 or n+4 idea.  I've actually been doing this in some of my previous home campaigns, including some tweaks to the adventures that actually allow for the full 4 hour slot to be consumed by a single combat with RP opportunities mixed in (and yes, even a method or two to recharge those wonderful powers).


Another common sentiment that I've seen and discussed with people is that a significant portion of our players and DMs feel that 4e is becoming more "roll" and less "role".  For those that feel this way, I highly recommend that you check out CORE1-13.  Heck, if you're in central Michigan and have players I might be able to be persuaded to DM it for you.  Far and away, I've had more role-playing fun with this adventure that any other that has seen publication so far (sorry Dave, your Kool-Aid Man moment was actually overthrown!).


So please, keep the ideas flowing and don't let the system bog down.  D&D is and always will be player-driven, so hit those email addresses (submissions@wizards.com, dndinsider@wizards.com, etc) with your motherlode ideas and join the party!

Writing Director,
Abolethic Sovereignty storyline

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4 years ago  ::  Sep 02, 2009 - 3:30PM #150
Alphastream1
  • Dragon Slayer
  • If only he would apply himself
  • Dammit Jim, this is Star Trek, not D&D!
Date Joined: Jan 31, 2006
Posts: 4,660

Agreed, most authors/admins that are on the Forums also watch this thread.


Regarding more combats with many foes, that works spectacularly well for low-threat or at-level threat encounters. It is more difficult to create a harder combat with many lower level foes, or to borrow the XP from other fights for this one to still challenge. Lower defenses, lower attacks, lower HPs... it can work, don't get me wrong, but it is harder to make it work without being dependant on cheese. I mean, the most typical encounter I see with many monsters includes a bunch of guard drakes (curse you,  guard drakes!).


As mods reach higher levels, there are more monsters with more synergies and that might make it easier to have encounters with many foes.


I'm sure a number of the authors will consider that a fun challenge to build.

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