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Switch to Forum Live View What do players want more of?
4 years ago  ::  Apr 22, 2009 - 6:23AM #41
Dragon9
  • Volunteer Community Lead
Date Joined: Jul 16, 2002
Posts: 4,997

Bigfluffylemon wrote:

So to summarise, players want:

More skill challenges
Fewer skill challenges
Longer skill challenges
Shorter skill challenges
More challenging combats
More interesting encounters
Better RP opportunities
More plot hooks and ongoing stories/characters
moar cowbell
And the whole mod to wrap up in 3 hours.

Good luck, writers!


Fixed that for you... you left out the most important part. :D

Sorry WOTC, you lost me with Essentials.  So where I used to buy every book that came out, now I will be very choosy about what I buy.  Can we just get back to real 4e?

Check out the 4e Conversion Wiki.

1. Wizards fight dirty.  They hit their enemies in the NADs. -- Dragon9
2. A barbarian hits people with his axe.  A warlord hits people with his barbarian.
3. Boo-freakin'-hoo, ya light-slingin' finger-wigglers. -- MrCelcius in response to the Cleric's Healer's Lore nerf
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4 years ago  ::  Apr 22, 2009 - 6:37AM #42
bgardner_1971
Date Joined: Sep 8, 2003
Posts: 27

warfteiner wrote:

To me, one of the best things about D&D is the lack of "corrals", as it were. When the party is faced with a sentient, highly intelligent opponent the situation does not always have to devolve into swords & shields - bribery, flattery (beholders just LOVE flattery), and straight-up negotiation can occur at just the right moment!


Let's consider the pratical implicatations of writing an encounter featuring a beholder and including an optional negotiation path.

The encounter is going to most likely be the equivalent of a Complexity 5 skill challenge (12 successes before 3 failures). If the PCs decide to try and forgo combat for diplomacy there's still going to be an underlying expectation by most players that at the end of the adventure if they do well they are awarded full experience. So as a writer in order to support this I need to develop a "social interaction" optional encounter that provides equivalent XP. Without making it feel like everything that's included is there simple to get the PCs XP.

So let's think about doing the beholder encounter as a social (negotiation) encounter. Doing a pure social encounter that works well as a skill challenge is very difficult if not outright impossible. As noted by many of the detractors of skill challenges, you get the "need more rolls" effect. As a player you've taken what you think to be the correct action and succesfully made your skill check, but the DM is still looking at you saying he needs another check for no obvious reason. It snaps the players belief suspenders.

Another way to state this (and the way I look at it) is that every success in a skill challenge has to be tied to a specific, tangible achievement. Otherwise players get frustrated because they can't tell in game that they're making progress and they can't tell in game how far they have to go.

Social interactions are particularly difficult in terms of writing skill challenges because clever or resourceful players can leapfrog many of the arguments of a given PC. In our beholder example, I could write this as a complexity 1 or 2 challenge and tie each success to an arguement the beholder might have. What if the PCs bribed the beholder with all of there gold and magic items? That's a hefty bribe. It's highly unlikely this would ever happen, but not impossible. Some DMs will feel constrained to require additional successes even though DME would allow the DM to adjudicate the encounter as they see fit. And you'd have players saying "this module sucks" because they tried bribery and they had to roll for successes even though they gave the beholder a massive bribe.

All that being said social interactions are much, much easier for DMs to do as a pure roleplaying scene. There's no artificial # of successes so DMs feel more free to let the massive bribe work.

warfteiner wrote:

I know I would love to see more encounters in the LFR adventures that can be either combat or a skill challenge. It would incorporate more pages into the download packet but I think this would allow for more options in terms of storylines, award bundles, and player fulfillment.


I don't think page size is a limiting factor on multiple paths through and adventure at all. I've written a few adventures for LFR and I've never, ever been told to cut out material due to page length. That's actually one of the advantages of writing for LFR as opposed to a magazine. Since they don't have to pay for printing it can be as long as it needs to be - provided the adventure is still runnable in a 4 hour time period.

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4 years ago  ::  Apr 22, 2009 - 8:37AM #43
Madfox11
  • LFR Global Admin
Date Joined: Dec 2, 2005
Posts: 4,446

bgardner_1971 wrote:

I don't think page size is a limiting factor on multiple paths through and adventure at all. I've written a few adventures for LFR and I've never, ever been told to cut out material due to page length. That's actually one of the advantages of writing for LFR as opposed to a magazine. Since they don't have to pay for printing it can be as long as it needs to be - provided the adventure is still runnable in a 4 hour time period.


Size IS a limiting factor, although, due to the 4 hour time period it rarely matters.

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4 years ago  ::  Apr 22, 2009 - 8:59AM #44
Keithric
  • Senior Volunteer Community Lead
Date Joined: Aug 19, 2007
Posts: 5,151

Madfox11 wrote:

One thing I have observed is that on many occassions players seem to suggest talking and offering the NPCs to give up at the start of the fight, but once combat has started they completely forget that option. Once the dice start rolling, the players do not stop until the last enemy is down. Even though at the start of the fight, the NPCs might very well feel superior, while halfway it quickly becomes clear the PCs are stronger.


I've seen that kind of thing tried before, but it's often been requiring a standard action, and needing to make _several_ standard actions to win a skill challenge, in the middle of a combat... there's a reason why traps don't get disarmed in combats, too, and it's pretty similar.

At any rate, back to the 3-hour example for a sec... recently played a mod and the DM was ~45 minutes late. Then people were frankly pretty slow in the first combat... and yeah, 4 combats and a skill challenge (which I'd imagine most groups would want more than 4 hours for) when you've already lost an hour meant that the mod ended up being very rushed at the late side of things so that people could go to bed, and that's a damn shame. You really can set up multiple modules in a row, and I've seen plenty of shows that manage '3 acts' in less time. Think something like Dr. Horrible - that fit a lot into 40 mins

Keith Richmond
Living Forgotten Realms Epic Writing Director
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4 years ago  ::  Apr 22, 2009 - 9:10AM #45
MatteBlack
Date Joined: Dec 21, 2006
Posts: 904
I could stand a little more consistency in difficulty, cohesion in overall stories and themes and notice/hints when a mod strays significantly from the norm.

I'd also like to see mini-mods that encompassed one or two standard type encounters that could be used to string together existing mods, fill smaller blocks of time or bridge gaps in levelling. Basically, campaign-approved encounters that a skilled DM could employ to flesh out home campaigns or account for travel between far-flung mods.
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4 years ago  ::  Apr 22, 2009 - 12:29PM #46
KarmaInferno
Date Joined: Mar 29, 2001
Posts: 736
More things to actually link PCs to the larger world around them.

PC-owned property, membership in established setting organizations, titles, etc.

Stuff that would make PCs a part of Faerun, instead of these eternal mayfly tourists flitting from here to there, meeting people for five minutes before either helping them or killing them.

Reasons for the PCs to actually CARE about these people.



-karma
LFR Characters:
Lady Tiana Elinden Kobori Silverwane - Drow Control Wizard
Kro'tak Warscream - Orc Bard
Fulcrum of Gond - Warforged Laser Cleric
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4 years ago  ::  Apr 22, 2009 - 12:59PM #47
Keithric
  • Senior Volunteer Community Lead
Date Joined: Aug 19, 2007
Posts: 5,151

KarmaInferno wrote:

Reasons for the PCs to actually CARE about these people.


I do wonder how you'd successfully pull something like that off in LFR.

I mean, when you have something like an honest NPC seek out your help multiple times, once having you recovering his dead son, and another time save his business from ruin over the resultant grief... and not a person at the table can remember his name. I'm guessing that route doesn't work, so... maybe an NPC who is generous with treasure? Or particularly funny? Crazy gnome from CORE1-3 seems to have his love/hate fans, though the crazy halfling from CORE1-2 has always been dismissed whenever brought up.

So maybe it's in what way you're crazy? Or if you accompany the party and give them the occasional healing surge?

Keith Richmond
Living Forgotten Realms Epic Writing Director
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4 years ago  ::  Apr 22, 2009 - 4:58PM #48
redwulfe
Date Joined: Sep 25, 2006
Posts: 164
The things I would like to see:

1. For the modules to be corrected with the updates. many GMs do not know that most of the DCs that they are using in skill challenges are set higher than what they should be. This leads to the skill challenges being harder than what they should be and an increase in hatred of skill challenges. We are supposed to follow the core rules not the module rules. We need more flexibility in the GMs to present a module that is fun for the players at their table. So I guess an article on using DME to increase the players enjoyment. This also follows with what a DM is and is not, namely he is an entertainer not an opponent.

2. For GMs/writers/players to learn that a properly presented skill challenge is fun for some of the players at the table. Not having a skill challenge at a table is like playing with rain of blows boy not fun for everyone. People need to understand that their are players that look forward to skill challenges and role playing and gaining a reward in story and XP. Combative players get combats that reward them in treasure and XP Why not let the RPers have their one encounter. One thing I have noticed is that the hatred of Skill challenges permeates all levels and ruins the fun for some players just like a combat combo that takes out monsters too early and ruins the fun for other combat players.

GMs who do not like skill challenges present them as a grouping of skill checks that must be made. You need 5 success over 3 failures in this challenge you can use these skills who wants to make the first check. My first play of WATE 1-1 was like this and though it was quick it was boring. You should try to not let players now they are in a challenge ask them for checks as they role play and not restrict yourself to the lists in the module. Also remember that the DCs in most early mods are too high and should be lowed this increases the chance of success. If properly presented players will not really look at the skill challenge as a challenge but as a small bit of RP they did with a couple of checks thrown in. My second time through WATE 1-1 was like this most of the players didn't know they had done a SC and they really enjoyed it. It as really well done and part of what I am saying here comes from that game.

Players who do not like SC often shut down during this part of the module making the encounter subject to one or two players. This is a problem player scenario and should be treated as such. It would be like one or two players swooping in and killing all of the monsters so no one else can have fun doing the same. Basic courtesy to the others at the table is needed. 50% of the players you meet love RP and properly presented SCs give them this so help out and don't shut down. Make sure you have one combat related skill, one social and one athletic. IF the correct DCs are used you will almost always have a 50% chance of success at your appropriate level without any bonuses or penalties to any check.

Writers who do not like SCs write weak ones. I can't say this enough more information is needed to help people run good SCs. most SCs can be broke down into tiers that need 1-3 checks to complete at every level and at the level of complexity that Cailte is talking about the entire challenge is over at 2-4 checks. A complexity 1 challenge only needs 2 successful checks and a complexity 2 only needs 4, this should be easy to make at the correct DCs. it should not be hard to break down the SC into 2-4 tiers needing 1-2 checks each. Most of the time this can be done at the table but it should not have to be since some GMs are not as good as others at winging it.

3. A bigger XP budget for writers to make better modules. As Cailte points out the current budget makes a sacrifice to add a SC into the module. A mod should be able to have about 6 scenes and five parts, which are necessary for every good story. Yes I know others exist but I am trying to keep it simple and formulaic. These parts are 1-2 scenes for expose, which sets up the environment, 2-3 for the Rise of conflict, 1 for the climax and 1 for the conclusion. A 2-2-1-1 or 1-3-1-1 is short enough to be done in a 4 hour time slot easily. This gives us 4 encounters and 2 fluff scenes like here is why your are here and this is what happens when it is over. As a graduate of theater arts, focusing on playwriting this is not a bad storyline scenario.

That being said taking XP from a budget that is two respected means that the encounters suffer and these are our bread and butter for gamers. I think the budget should be enough for 1 encounter at level -1, 1 encounters of level, 1 at Level +1 and a climax of level +2. The writer can put a SC in any of the encounters that they like and I think one per mod is sufficient. Since this is a still an XP budget some writers will be able to decrease one encounter to increase or to gain another minor encounter for another scene but this gives flexibility as well as a formula for newer writers to follow that helps them with a template to follow.

Well this is my 2 cents feel free to disagree but please be vocal so we can discuss it since I like to debate and learn allot from these RP encounters.

Red
It's a sad state of affairs when DMs measure their success in total party kills and players in the damage they deal.

Red
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4 years ago  ::  Apr 22, 2009 - 7:31PM #49
szwanger
Date Joined: Jul 26, 2003
Posts: 99
Better traps.

I am soooo tired of traps where the party's typical (and even worse, correct) response is to attack the trap instead of having the character with +20 Thievery try to disable it.
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4 years ago  ::  Apr 22, 2009 - 7:50PM #50
warfteiner
  • Fool of Win
Date Joined: Jun 21, 2007
Posts: 422
I myself find traps to be a 50/50 event:

If the party is full of people that are experienced with the rules and nuts & bolts of 4e, they simply attack the trap and hack at it until it's dead. Not rewarding at all.

-or-

If the party is full of people that are new to the game, new to 4e, or simply there for a good time they start trying to take cover, dodge, throw shields over the dart slots, all sorts of thoughtful and interesting options! Very rewarding for players and DMs.

In that vein, I would like to see some traps that have inherent effects on the area - such as, trap is disabled it could be adjusted and controlled with thievery checks, but if it is simply bashed well we're all out of luck. I've actually had a party attempt to do this in LFR and it was fan-frickin-tastic.

I suppose trap design largely gets into DME (where is the dart trap - is it set into the wall behind marble blocks/ non-attackable, or is it a turret/ attackable? etc) but that dosen't mean that we should always shoot for vague trap descriptions.
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