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Switch to Forum Live View What do players want more of?
4 years ago  ::  Apr 15, 2009 - 2:43PM #21
Litz
Date Joined: Sep 2, 2007
Posts: 122

Tancread wrote:

I use tiles at home games, but not at games at the FLGS, I find they shift too much when crammed onto the smaller tables used at stores. They look great when they stay together, I have tried using post-it note style clear tape to hold them in place, but no real success, they always seem to get pushed around and bumped. For those of you who use them regularly, how do you keep them from shifting?


I've seen a DM use a sheet of felt under his tiles to help the base layer stay in place.. Seing it in action has made me want to make my next game table like a poker table with a felt covering for this reason. Also avoid using small tile pieces because just moving minis sometimes bump them. Instead buy some of the novelty items like 3d barrels, crates, pilliars, tables ect. Not only are they harder to move outs place but they add flavor to the game.

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4 years ago  ::  Apr 15, 2009 - 3:02PM #22
szwanger
Date Joined: Jul 26, 2003
Posts: 99

Elder_basilisk wrote:

Since this is me:
2. Opportunities for our parties to make meaningful choices.


I'll second this. And not choices which the party doesn't realize they are making (e.g. CORE 1-1).

One example of a real choice is DALE 1-1 The Prospect.
Spoiler: Show

At the end, the PCs have to choose which twin to side with.


B. Cor 1-2 Radiant Vessel of Thesk Spoiler: Show

As originally written and interpreted by the first DM who ran it for me, you hear the woman's screams immediately after second combat finishes. This left the party with the choice to: A. take a short rest and probably let the woman die B. Go into the next fight without a short rest because that's what heroes do.


This is actually very poor writing. First, if it's intended that the party cannot take a short rest, that needs to be spelled out explicitly, because 4E combat is designed around the mechanic of using the short rest to replenish encounter powers. I have always run "immediately" to mean "immediately after the first short rest".

Second, the last combat is quite difficult and it's likely the party has expended all their healing powers in the second combat. Going into the last combat without any healing is [italic]lethal[/italic]. Railroading PCs into a TPK or near-TPK is terrible encounter design.

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4 years ago  ::  Apr 15, 2009 - 11:44PM #23
Elder_basilisk
Date Joined: Dec 16, 2005
Posts: 2,524

szwanger wrote:

I'll second this. And not choices which the party doesn't realize they are making (e.g. CORE 1-1).

One example of a real choice is DALE 1-1 The Prospect.
Spoiler: Show

At the end, the PCs have to choose which twin to side with.


Strange--that seems to be an illusory or meaningless choice to me. I thought it was one of the weakest parts of the module. At every table I've played, it's gone the same way and mostly without any discussion.

Spoiler: Show

The deck is stacked in favor of giving it to the sister because she hired the party in the first place--thus to any character who likes to honor their word or who values their reputation as someone who can be hired to perform a job she is the go-to choice. Additionally, her brother's argument that the temple should be returned to service as a temple does not appeal to characters who do not worship his god and since that's not Tempus, that's pretty much everyone in LFR. (Tempus, Amaunator, Selune, Corellon, and Moradin are the only gods I've seen characters following, and Tempus and Selune are the only ones with more than one local follower).

In any event, this is more of a pick your reward scene that happens at the end of the module than a meaningful choice that takes place in the module and has an impact on how the story progresses


This is actually very poor writing. First, if it's intended that the party cannot take a short rest, that needs to be spelled out explicitly, because 4E combat is designed around the mechanic of using the short rest to replenish encounter powers. I have always run "immediately" to mean "immediately after the first short rest".

Second, the last combat is quite difficult and it's likely the party has expended all their healing powers in the second combat. Going into the last combat without any healing is [italic]lethal[/italic]. Railroading PCs into a TPK or near-TPK is terrible encounter design.


I agree with this. It is lethal unless the previous fight goes very quickly. When I played the first time it was a near TPK and we didn't even get a chance to attempt the skill challenge. (The second time I played due to some good luck and good tactics on our party's part the second fight went quickly and we had only used about two encounter powers and one healing word). However, I think it's a valuable kind of choice that may be able to be done well. That's why I put the commentary on how I think it could be done--follow up an easy fight and make it a choice that most characters are able to make in either direction.

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4 years ago  ::  Apr 16, 2009 - 3:46AM #24
Bigfluffylemon
Date Joined: Nov 10, 2003
Posts: 719
Seconded on the meaninful choices. DALE1-2 and CORM1-2 are both good examples of how, in different ways, players can have meaningful choices within the confines of a mod.

I'd also like to see more meaningful RP outside of skill challenges (ties into the above), with more ways to use skills and information outside XP granting encounters. As an adjunct to that, ways to reward some non-combat character build choices (e.g. the linguist feat, ability to make a secure encampment, your regional background). Such rewards should be occasional, and characters without such feats should never be stuck, but a +2 bonus to diplomacy for speaking the local lingo, or +2 to history for having the appropriate background might be nice.
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4 years ago  ::  Apr 16, 2009 - 12:35PM #25
Keithric
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Date Joined: Aug 19, 2007
Posts: 5,161
I would like regional backgrounds to mean something more often.
I'd like obvious tie-ins to previous influence/story awards.

I'd like for everyone working on modules to coordinate creature, trap, and treasure bundle selection so that repeats are not overly repeated. Obviously some repeats are fine, and expected, but please.

Along those lines, I'd like to see treasure bundles actually interesting and worth considering more often. Interesting, in this case, does not necessarily mean mathematically best, though it hopefully means fun.

I'd like modules to be designed to finish in about 3 hours, so that it's safe to take time to roleplay or do optional encounters, or to just go 'Oh, the DM is late, we still have time to finish without missing the bus'.
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4 years ago  ::  Apr 17, 2009 - 1:49PM #26
Alphastream1
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Date Joined: Jan 31, 2006
Posts: 4,660
This thread is really useful. In the past, I would likely have been louder. Now as an author, I'm more of in a listening mode (maybe that's their evil plan...). The comments everyone is making are, I suspect, useful to many authors and admins.

I've often thought about the 3-hr time limit that Keithric suggests. It is really hard to do with the current format. Your best bet to do that is a high complexity skill challenge that does that, plus three encounters that just use the remaining XP. It's just really hard to end up with a fast mod... if you go with two combats, they will be long difficult ones. Too many could work (5-6 combats), if you had a mechanic to keep them strung together so as to increase the difficulty and kept the monsters low on HPs... but you can't do that as a policy. So, at the core, you are looking at a hard task to keep mods brief. And many of us want lots of RP. I suspect paragon mods will almost always run long. Very hard for all those high HP monsters not to take a while to go down unless you have a bunch of strikers at the table.

On my end, I like the idea of more story, especially at the low tiers. I get the concept of starting small, but small should still be 'heroic' and interesting. Mods should feed off of one another. We are starting to see this.

I want to see interesting terrain, variations on skill challenge formats (the rules seem to allow for this), and some clever uses of situational effects to modify otherwise dry combats.

I would like to see monsters carry treasure, instead of the bundles only showing up at the end. Let us try out and play with those toys! (Especially since 'more gold' is such a common pick).

I would like to see compelling story, where we care about what we are doing. Not just because of the fate of Faerun (paragon/epic), but because of compelling NPCs and story elements.

I would like to see region matter.

I would like more interesting impacts from encounter success (whether skill challenges or otherwise) and of approaches (stealth, nature, history, and other checks before encounters). I agree that choices should matter (or feel they matter) more often.

I do see tremendous improvements if I compare the 4-7 and 7-10 mods with earlier mods. I think everyone is getting better at this!
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4 years ago  ::  Apr 17, 2009 - 3:31PM #27
Ferol_debtor_of_Torm
Date Joined: Jun 10, 2004
Posts: 852
More challenge.

SPEC1-2 was perfect as far I am concerned. Playing up should be suicide at the bottom end of the level band and still challenging for characters at the top part of the band.

More chances to explore/learn about the new realms in character.

The Realms is drastically different from the Realms I knew and loved in 3.5. I can cope with change but show me cool parts of the changes. The realms used to feel like a fully fleshed out and realized game world. Now it just feels like generic high fantasy.

More positive interaction with interesting characters.

Many of the NPCs/hooks we're given to interact with in mods feel downright mundane. I would love more of the characters featured in CORE1-2 and DALE1-2/DALE1-4. We need less priests/priestesses of *insert good god* who wants us to clear out an abandoned temple in their name.

More flexible loot.

The parcel system is alright but not with what we're given to work with. Some characters have it rough (implement users) and others are simply screwed from the beginning (shamans). Also, the current system makes it very hard to be original and still keep competitive with your peers. It is very hard to play a melee character without being stuck with the same vicious/bloodclaw weapon everyone else is using.

More meaningful favors.

There are a few good/cool ones out there. One square of light off of a piece of equipment is useful and a cloak made from the hide of a bear you brought down with your own hands is cool and something you can imagine and describe your character wearing. An intangible favor of person X is not. Especially when the intangible favor does nothing other than provide a story hook in the next mod. I don't even collect the little story reward slips anymore, they were making a mess in my binder. Now I just write down story codes.

That's enough for now. I'll rant more later.
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4 years ago  ::  Apr 18, 2009 - 12:11PM #28
Telvin3d
  • Fool of Win
Date Joined: Apr 29, 2008
Posts: 835
I want better information as to the various connections between modules and quests. As a DM, I am finding that my players are missing out on the second half of many quests because they have leveled past it. Quests are being continued in adventures of the same level band. They are being continued two or three quarters later. There is very little ability for either DMs or players to plan for what they want to play in the future.
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The layout is lousy. The colour scheme burns the eyes. The wiki is a crippled monstrosity. So many posters have abandoned this site that some major forums are going days without posts. The 4e General Discussion board regularly has posts on the front page from two or even three days ago. This is pathetic.

Since I have to assume Wizards has a vested interest in an active community I wish someone in charge would fix this mess.
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4 years ago  ::  Apr 19, 2009 - 4:32AM #29
Cailte
Date Joined: Aug 18, 2007
Posts: 8,275
For me the #1 area that mods need to improve on is Skill Challenges.

I want smaller Skill Challenges. Complexity 1 and 2.

I want larger skill challenges, if they must be used, to be dramatic and to matter, not just be ways to fill out 20-30 minutes of play time while everyone sits around trying to figure out what to do according to the module author based on cryptic hints from the DM, and filling up the xp quota the easy way.

A skill challenge should reveal things, and make the next step in the challenge clear. Not just be a bunch of things sitting there hoping the PCs do something.

Example Show
The PCs must chase a monster who kidnapped a local lord's son into a marsh.
  • perception find the tracks which lead to the marsh
  • history/nature (maybe Arcana or Religion depending on where in the Realms) to know something about the marsh
  • nature/perception to find the safe ground
  • athletics/acrobatics/edurance to work your way through the marsh
  • stealth to avoid alerting the denizens of the marsh to your passage or bluff/diplomacy/intimidate/insight to get their help.

That's 5 "check points" with a range of options so each PC can participate, and a logical progression from one point to another.
That's a Complexity 2 challenge, not the complexity 3, with hard primary DCs that would appear in most LFR mods to hit the XP budget of a level appropriate encounter.
In short; skill challenges for plot not xp.

Make them easier to complete (number of rolls, useable skills) and make them self explanatory in terms of the modules goals.

Maps as a Potential Author

Elder_basilisk wrote:

4. Writers given meaningful options other than the use of the abysmal Dungeon Tiles.


While I don't think Dungeon Tiles are bad, I do think we need to be able to write modules without regard for how they will be mapped with Dungeon Tiles. Around here, at least, most maps are done with a whiteboard marker on some style of battlemat (either laminated 3E DMG sheets or commercial ones).

Now, if this "In the near future, D&D Insider will have a Dungeon Tiles Mapper application available for free, which you can use to build your encounters." (LFR Writer's Guidelines pg 6) had any hope of being true it would be less of an issue. Alas that such a critical product is only supported by a fan product that is now 12 months and 3 products out of date.

There are still problems with Dungeon Tiles as a restrcition - try making a map that looks like it is a ship with Dungeon Tiles (Hint there are 2 tiles for wooden floor.) so yes I'd like that waived.

Harder Fights
Yes I want these, but I also realise that the XP constraints can prevent them from happening.

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4 years ago  ::  Apr 19, 2009 - 1:10PM #30
Elder_basilisk
Date Joined: Dec 16, 2005
Posts: 2,524

Cailte wrote:

Harder Fights
Yes I want these, but I also realise that the XP constraints can prevent them from happening.


I suspect that this will be less and less of a problem as characters increase in levels--or perhaps I should say, this will frequently be less of a problem as characters increase in levels.

Here's why:

A. 4th edition characters grow increasingly dissimilar as they increase in level and therefore the capabilities of an unbalanced party become increasingly unbalanced. At level 1, a dragonborn fighter with dragon breath is a decent substitute for a wizard with burning hands. Not as much damage, but it will clear minions just as nicely. At level 11, the dragonborn fighter probably does not have anything that will duplicate the utility of wall of fire, stinking cloud, or blood pulse.

LFR parties are frequently unbalanced because of the semi-random nature of who has what characters at what levels. Coordinators do what they can in order to balance tables as best they can, but at the end of the day, most LFR parties will be lacking in one area and overcompensating in others. This will produce difficult fights that will get more difficult as the missing roles become more distinct and more difficult to replace.

B. 4th edition parties depend heavily upon synergy in order to be effective in combat. The higher level the party, the more powers you have that can either work together or against each other and therefore the greater the difference in performance will be between parties that work well together (see the reason A here--you can fill every WotC approved role and still not work well together) and those that don't. Having more powers creates the possibility--and indeed the expectation--of more complex combinations of powers. The difficulty? Unlike a home group where players would play together and develop and practice combos of powers and might even work out some planned strategies, the typical LFR table does not even know the full capabilities of all the other characters at the table, much less have a plan for working together in a complex manner. Therefore, the types of tactics combining powers and abilities in LFR are likely to be more rudimentary and less smoothely executed than they would be in a home game.

To give one example, a group of five warlords could theoretically squeeze two--maybe even three turns (if they add readies into the mix)--of offense for every character into a single round of instant planning with a carefully coordinated series of guileful switches. However, if someone guileful switches with the wrong character, it can easily wind up being less than the normal one turn of offense for each character that instant planning would normally provide. That is a level of coordination that is theoretically possible in a home game but is simply not possible in RPGA play. There are undoubtedly less complex combinations of powers that are actually possible in home play that will be very rare in RPGA play because they depend upon coordination of the abilities and positions of multiple characters which is something that takes practice--and in a situation where the same table rarely plays more than once, such practice is not a realistic possibility.

Monsters and encounter levels were playtested in home groups. RPGA players have some inherent tactical disadvantages vis a vis home groups that will become more significant as the campaign increases in level.

To use an analogy, if you pick a random group of under 10 soccer players and pit them against a team with players of similar talent who have just finished a season playing together, they will be at a disadvantage. On the other hand, if you picked a world cup style team from the best players of any given nation and, without giving them any practice, pitted them against another world cup team that had just played through the tournament, they would be at a much greater disadvantage. The better players get, the more they can accomplish through teamwork and the more significant practice becomes.

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