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4 years ago ::
Apr 15, 2009 - 5:10AM
#11
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Date Joined:
Aug 11, 2006
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I was blown away by SPEC1-2 and would like to see every mod like that (I understand that it's impossible for 4 hours mods to be on par with a double-length special, of course). The spoiler blocks contain spoilers of SPEC1-2, DALE1-3, CORE1-2.* More fluff and regional flavor Spoiler:
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Zhentil Keep felt alive while I still have to try to remember anything about the three mods I played in Akanul that would stand out from any other region. * Somethng to fight for other than gold Spoiler:
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No, we can't destroy and evil artifact every day, but there must be something more for heroes to do than to be hired by merchants. * Encounters that have additions to the typical heroes vs monsters fights Spoiler:
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Guarding the ritual caster was nice - so was the skill challenge included in the final combat in CORE1-2 * Role playing opportunities - I totally agree with everything said about DALE1-3 (a fantastic mod, though my ranger didn't get to Spoiler:
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free the bears in the arena , and I loved the Spoiler:
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Orc scene in CORE1-2
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4 years ago ::
Apr 15, 2009 - 5:31AM
#12
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* Somethng to fight for other than gold Spoiler:
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No, we can't destroy and evil artifact every day, but there must be something more for heroes to do than to be hired by merchants.
I find this one a bit odd... looking at all the adventures I have run only the minority are about merchant hiring PC to do X with X being simple merc job. Sure, in many adventures the NPC pays the PCs to do something, but doing that something is usually heroic and a good act. The fact is that getting paid for a job is one of the easier more generic plot-hooks. A few quick examples (and there are much more): CORE1-4, CORE1-5, CORE1-8, DALE1-2, IMPI1-1, IMPI1-3.
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4 years ago ::
Apr 15, 2009 - 5:49AM
#13
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Date Joined:
Aug 24, 2007
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More challenge. As it stands, the high tier version of most modules really isn't very difficult.
More good skill challenges. There are too many of them that are badly written. A good challenge would involve thinking, roleplaying potential, and creativity; a bad challenge is basically "roll endurance twice and lose a healing surge if you fail". Too many of them are either about boring tasks (digging through a bunch of rubble) or are way too restrictive about which skills can be used. Ideally they let you tackle a problem in different ways (e.g. do you climb the wall, or bribe the guard, or ...)
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4 years ago ::
Apr 15, 2009 - 9:07AM
#14
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Date Joined:
Feb 11, 2006
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I agree with Kurald. Most of the skill challenges I've seen require too much emphasis on a certain set of skills - either only physical skills, or only social skills. Most classes focus on either one or the other, and as a result the typical party has a wide range of skills that don't always get utilized. Prime example. DMing EAST 1-1 last night, and the skill challenge only uses Spoiler:
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Acrobatics, Athletics, Dungeoneering, and Endurance . The paladin and the warlock, who had focused more on Spoiler:
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knowledge and social skills basically had to sit around while the wizard and the fighter racked up the six successes. It wouldn't be too hard to think of a way to incorporate different skills ( Spoiler:
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Nature check to analyze the most efficient way to move the rocks? ).
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4 years ago ::
Apr 15, 2009 - 9:33AM
#15
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Date Joined:
Apr 29, 2008
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The big skill challenge in that module involves the party being caught in a massive cave-in. I happen to have also run it last night. So, yeah, social checks are not particularly applicable. But in addition to the physical skills, Dungeoneering is very useful. In fact that nature check to see how the rocks should be moved? That's the classic definition of what dungeoneering is used for. Heal was also a good check. Given the circumstances, a creative player could have probably convinced me to let a history check pass, although with a high DC. All in all, I think it is a well written skill challenge.
If a player doesn't feel they are getting much use out of a skill, they should retrain it. However, not every skill is going to be useful in every circumstance.
This little signature is my official and insignificant protest to the (not so new now) community redesign.
The layout is lousy. The colour scheme burns the eyes. The wiki is a crippled monstrosity. So many posters have abandoned this site that some major forums are going days without posts. The 4e General Discussion board regularly has posts on the front page from two or even three days ago. This is pathetic.
Since I have to assume Wizards has a vested interest in an active community I wish someone in charge would fix this mess.
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4 years ago ::
Apr 15, 2009 - 9:37AM
#16
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More challenge. As it stands, the high tier version of most modules really isn't very difficult.
More good skill challenges. There are too many of them that are badly written. A good challenge would involve thinking, roleplaying potential, and creativity; a bad challenge is basically "roll endurance twice and lose a healing surge if you fail". Too many of them are either about boring tasks (digging through a bunch of rubble) or are way too restrictive about which skills can be used. Ideally they let you tackle a problem in different ways (e.g. do you climb the wall, or bribe the guard, or ...)
This is exactly what DME is meant to help alleviate.
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4 years ago ::
Apr 15, 2009 - 10:35AM
#17
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Date Joined:
Oct 27, 2005
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More good skill challenges. There are too many of them that are badly written. A good challenge would involve thinking, roleplaying potential, and creativity; a bad challenge is basically "roll endurance twice and lose a healing surge if you fail". Too many of them are either about boring tasks (digging through a bunch of rubble) or are way too restrictive about which skills can be used. Ideally they let you tackle a problem in different ways (e.g. do you climb the wall, or bribe the guard, or ...)
Seconded. Skill challenges should present a problem and allow the party to figure out the best way to solve the problem. (The corollary to that statement is that the problem needs to be broad enough that there can be multiple approaches to it.) Some of the worst skill challenges I've seen have been problems that should be tackled by something like a single group skill check (as Kurald_Galain says, a good example of this is "clear the rubble", which appears at least twice that I know of).
Personally, some of the best skill challenges I've been through were:
- SPEC1-1 - Wiiide-open - but with scenes there for when we got stuck. Our highlight was using bluff to sell a party member into slavery and then stealthing him back out once he'd gotten some info. (In our case this challenge was helped along by a great GM. Thanks, Jason!)
- CORE1-7 - How can you go wrong with a huge free-form Law & Order episode?
 Enough hints in place to steer the players in the intended direction but not so much that they felt railroaded, and still enough leeway to try pretty much anything.
I understand those who say that DME is here to fix this, but I shouldn't have to use DME to make a significant portion of a module palatable. DME should be used to make changes specific to my table to make the module more fun specifically for my players. When every DM everywhere has to make significant modifications to the exact same thing to make it fun for anyone, there's a larger issue.
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4 years ago ::
Apr 15, 2009 - 12:22PM
#18
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Date Joined:
Dec 16, 2005
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Since this is me: 1. A complete removal of all skill challenges ever. The only reason that they do anything remotely resembling working is that players stock up on "That'll do" cards. (Seriously--to even have 50/50 odds of success on a complexity 6 skill challenge, absent "That'll do" cards, players need to have 75% odds of success on every individual roll they make; for a complexity 12 skill challenge, the 50/50 point is 85% success on each individual skill check (that is succeed on a 3 territory which means that players who want to have a good chance to succeed pretty much need to autosucceed on every individual roll since there is not much space between 85% and 100%). Skill challenges are a bad idea supported by a mechanic that would have to try hard to be worse. 2. Opportunities for our parties to make meaningful choices. Thus far most modules have simply been tactical miniature scenarios. (Don't get me wrong, I like tactical minis combat and played the D&D minis game for some time, but I like my role playing games to offer more than just tactical combat scenarios. The opportunity to play magic tea party in the obligatory skill challenge doesn't cut it). There have been, as far as I can tell, four notable exceptions to this trend: A. Impiltur 1-1. Alone spoilers
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You actually make a decision to stick with the original mission and escort the maiden in distress to the city or to go and rescue the villagers kidnapped by the goblin tribe. (Unfortunately, this was not presented as clearly as it could have been so when I played it the first time and every time I ran it, the party figured that the railroad tracks were clearly leading to the goblins and walked that way without realizing that they had just made a significant decision.)
Future scenarios of this type could be improved by making there at least be apparent reasons to choose to ignore the plight of the villagers other than apathy and contrariness. Perhaps the area is dangerous and the girl cannot simply be left alone/left with the halfling. (Maybe a series of skill checks and a good plan (though preferably not in the skill challenge format--see item 1 above is necessary to keep her from being kidnapped by bandits or eaten by wild beasts). Perhaps there is something time-sensitive that needs to be delivered to the city tonight and delay will prevent success in that regard). B. Cor 1-2 Radiant Vessel of Thesk Spoiler:
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As originally written and interpreted by the first DM who ran it for me, you hear the woman's screams immediately after second combat finishes. This left the party with the choice to: A. take a short rest and probably let the woman die B. Go into the next fight without a short rest because that's what heroes do.
From a role-playing perspective, I appreciated the choice. Taking risks because it is the right thing to do is what separates heroes from wannabes. From a mechanical perspective, on the other hand, two tough fights without a short rest is extremely difficult in 4th edition. Unlike previous editions, characters don't have short-term buffs that will mitigate the situation and since their powers (especially healing) are mostly encounter based, rather than daily, the heroic decision is likely to be setting up a TPK rather than merely a tougher than usual encounter. (The two previous tables run by that judge had been TPKs and our table was two or three rolls from a TPK). I think this would be a very difficult choice to write well in 4th edition, but if it can be done, it would probably involve two factors:
a1. Have the choice follow the module's easy fight. Most mods have a fight that is not a big challenge. This should be the one to follow-up.
b1. Have the choice follow an even numbered xp granting encounter. This would at least ensure that every character has an action point and a daily magic item usage to spend in the encounter should they choose to take on the challenge of the second encounter without a short rest.
c1. Make the choice less loaded. Let the NPC you are here to save die is too large of an implied risk and loads the choice towards: Coward/hero. There is not much room for middle ground. An example of a less loaded choice might be: let the bad guy get away and track him later vs. confront him now and possibly lose. There should be ways that a broad spectrum of PCs can conceivably make either choice and live with themselves afterward. C. Dragon coast 1-2 Thin Grey Line Spoiler:
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I haven't read this module so I don't know exactly what choices you have--my party reacted similarly both times I played it. However, I get the sense from the module and the rewards at the end that you can play by opposing the guard, by joining them completely, or by taking the middle path. This is an excellent example of a module that provides meaningful choices and the best part is that it was written in such a way that it was apparent at the time that out characters had choices to make. D. Corm 1-2 Gangs of Whaeloon Spoiler:
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Again, I have only played this module and I have not run it. (Also, I have no idea how much DME was employed in terms of the encounters the first time I played it--suffice it to say that I didn't even recognize the encounter structure the second time through). However, this module seems to be structured in a way that allows multiple paths through the module and that makes it appear that the choice of which path to take effects the module. (Though the second time through our DM implied that our choice of which gangs to ally with made no difference--if so, that is very disappointing). 3. More looting the corpses and treasuries of our fallen enemies. Seriously. The standard method for gaining magic items in LFR seems to be: "meet a random dwarf who gives you a pair of magic boots unless you are a total jerk" or "at the end of the adventure, you are approached by a random NPC who may or may not be thematically appropriate to the adventure who offers you bundles C-E (A-D at low tier), provided you do this trivial social skill challenge and/or don't treat him like a total jerk." That kind of thing is fine every now and then (though I'm not so sure about random dwarves giving away magic items--whatever happened to our stereotypical greedy dwarves?) But for me at least, D&D is about taking the orc warlord's sword from his cold, dead, hands, prying the magic gems from the eyes of the evil idol, and finding awesome weapons and spiffy armor in the secret armory of a long-abandoned dwarven temple. But for some reason, all the LFR mosters (except a certain gnoll in East 1-2) seem to be wielding completely worthless weapons, the eyes of the idols are worthless, and the treasuries and armory are mostly empty wastes of space on the map. 4. Writers given meaningful options other than the use of the abysmal Dungeon Tiles. I could live with having to use Word 2007 (though other than the RPGA's requirement, I don't see any reason to upgrade from the Word 97 that is perfectly good for everything else I do). I could live with the other restrictions. But if I have to use the Dungeon Tile product to generate my maps, they can find other suckers to write these mods for them.
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4 years ago ::
Apr 15, 2009 - 2:29PM
#19
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Date Joined:
Jun 21, 2007
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An interjection about the use of dungeon tiles: The tiles are utilized by the writers, I feel, in order to help flesh out the feel of the encounter and surrounding areas. While the obvious draw here is to give us - as players and DMs - a more fully-realized world/ adventure/ sidetrek/ what-have-you, I must admit that the tiles simply are not consistently used by the gaming community for several reasons:
- Usage of out of print tiles!
- Using more than one set of a specific tile set
- Size of maps/ transportation options
I try to use the tiles that I have as often as possible, but if I weren't a collector as well as a player I probably wouldn't have 2 sets of all of them to date. Also, if I have to travel anywhere outside of my hometown for a gameday I will most likely not take the completed tilemaps, as they are prone to breakage or separation (and possibly losing a piece or two!). What I'd like to see for dungeon tiles from WotC and the RPGA:
- Dungeon tile sets as DM rewards (not pieces, *sets*) for DMs with huge point pools
- Longer print runs on dungeon tile sets
- Stricter limitations on what writers can use for their maps - multiple sets allowed, but one unique set maximum over the entire adventure, perhaps?
I must admit, though - the DM Rewards at GenCon and DDXP have had a *really* nice selection of Dungeon Tiles for DMs that don't already have them! Hopefully this will continue; it's pretty cool to use tiles at a table that's never used them, their reactions are fantastic.
Writing Director, Abolethic Sovereignty storyline Spoiler:
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4 years ago ::
Apr 15, 2009 - 2:38PM
#20
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I use tiles at home games, but not at games at the FLGS, I find they shift too much when crammed onto the smaller tables used at stores. They look great when they stay together, I have tried using post-it note style clear tape to hold them in place, but no real success, they always seem to get pushed around and bumped. For those of you who use them regularly, how do you keep them from shifting?
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