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4 years ago ::
Apr 07, 2009 - 5:40PM
#21
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Date Joined:
Mar 26, 2008
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I like the idea of getting rid of minions. 4 minions = 1 non-minion, so you could easily increase the number of non-minions you have.
Although I'd only use it when the table is breezing through a game with no difficulty. So its also possible I'd use it if some other combo is killing minions with ease. Mods should be challenging IMO so anything that makes them challenging (outside of fudging dice rolls or magically giving them more HP half way through a fight) is good.
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4 years ago ::
Apr 07, 2009 - 7:30PM
#22
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Date Joined:
Aug 19, 2007
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You can't. Minions are defined in the DMG as always having one HP and dying when they take any damage. DME does not allow you to change or disallow core rules. You must, in judging LFR games, use the core rules. This is for a good reason. Changing the core way minions works really messes with key 4E concepts.
Sure you can. One creature is a "Leader" and gives the minions level of monster/2 temp hit points through DME. They'll still always die on one hit, but they won't die from a Rod of Reaving. Unless DME was involved there is a mod that does something extremely similar to that.
He shrugged and asked me what I thought, clearly indicating that he (and I think WotC) would really prefer us to handle these situations. Later we spoke in more detail on RPGA issues and he and Rob understood that we need a little more clarity on hot-button issues because grayness degrades enjoyment at the table.
Well of course - at an actual home game, the DM will end up resolving this one way or the other. It becomes more of an issue in an RPGA game where each DM has to resolve it.
What all of this says to me is that, in the current environment, a DM is ok to rule that 'transfer' is a keyword, but they should realize they are likely on shaky ground doing so.
You don't need to make it a keyword to shoot this down "When you place your Warlock’s Curse on a target" is a specific minor action that Warlocks are capable of taking. Clearly, they're referring to that specific minor action - that the Rod of Corruption sounds similar makes a case that they could work together, but there's nothing especially shaky about ruling against it as they're not clearly the same action given the word 'transfer'
I'd also point out that the vast majority of serious abuses in 4e resolve around doing multiple properties from different weapons/implements onto one attack from one specific weapon/implement. A lot of DMs I know rule against such things - the CharOp board will even laugh at certain combos and ignore them. So it isn't especially targeted at Warlocks either...
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4 years ago ::
Apr 07, 2009 - 9:24PM
#23
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Date Joined:
Jun 13, 2006
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Usually, I DME away all the minions if a player has this combo.
Most of the time I'm DME minions instead of monsters to make things faster and more intense, so it's the natural progression I guess.
Also, I've DME'd 2 hp minions for certain critter types (orcs usually, but pretty much anything that has a decent bloodied effect - doesn't have the right feel if some critters can't behave like suicidal savages if it really is suicidal)
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4 years ago ::
Apr 07, 2009 - 11:12PM
#24
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Date Joined:
May 25, 2007
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I really don't understand what so broken about this combo when most class with acces to a thrown weapon can do the same with a Lightning Weapon. 2 of my players took it (Brutal Scoundrel with Rapier, using Dagger as thrown weapon and TWF Ranger using a Lightning Bow for the times he don't wanna melee). It's pretty much doing the same thing
Biggest problem about minions isn't really that they die too fast, it's that they are worth WAY to many XP for what they are actually worth
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4 years ago ::
Apr 08, 2009 - 1:46AM
#25
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With the lightning weapon you still need to hit once and it is a daily power and not a property as with the rods. Alchemist fire would be worse, especially at higher levels were that low level flask still instantly kills epic minions.
Minions should die quickly, but minions should never be so weak that people ignore them. All the minions with auras and special abilities people have been seeing are being added on purpose. They give more oomph to minions. The designers said as much during the monster and encounter design seminars at DDXP.
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4 years ago ::
Apr 08, 2009 - 7:04AM
#26
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Date Joined:
Aug 24, 2007
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Alchemist fire would be worse, especially at higher levels were that low level flask still instantly kills epic minions.
Except that using a low-level flask your to-hit chance is abysmal, since that doesn't improve with stats or levels.
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4 years ago ::
Apr 08, 2009 - 7:38AM
#27
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Date Joined:
Aug 19, 2007
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FOr anyone wondering why some of us are making such a big deal out of the balance issues, here is a good example of how the mass minion killing powers break the system a little. Some minor spoilers for AKAN1-2 follow.
Spoiler:
Show
In the large final battle, the PCs are faced with a hoard of 10 minions. They are in an enclosed space where it is effectively impossible for any minion to not be within five squares of other minions. So, for a single minor action, all of them die. That represents 500 XP, or over 15% of the total XP budget for the module.
To be fair about that specific example,
Spoiler:
Show
They are also all in a nice circle around a boss with a close burst 4 attack that doesn't tell friend from foe, and who doesn't really give a crap about them. I've DMed that one twice, and played it 3 times, and all 5 times saw the boss monster kill far more of the minions than the PCs. lol
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4 years ago ::
Apr 08, 2009 - 8:49AM
#28
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Date Joined:
May 15, 2003
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Warlock places the curse on one minion, the minion takes 1 point of damage and dies. The Rod of Corruption allows you to transfer the curse to surrounding creatures. Transfer and place are two different things and thus transferring does not cause 1 point of damage.
If people want to kill lots of minions get Cursebite, and use an action, that is what minions were designed for.
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4 years ago ::
Apr 08, 2009 - 10:51AM
#29
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Date Joined:
Oct 26, 2007
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I think the main problem your running into here people isn't a warlock rod combo problem, but poorly written encounters made by people who don't understand how minions are supposed to work. Those writers are fueling what normally isn't that game breaking of a combination.
They're the fodder in the encounter, they're supposed to be easily killed out of hand. They're not the grunts, the foot soldiers or anything of the like, those are brutes and soldiers.
If you've got a room full of minions with nothing else to battle, that's an extremely poorly written encounter and it isn't the warlock's fault that whoever wrote it is just handing out free XP and gold and you shouldn't punish them for being creative.
There are plenty of zone spells in the game that could accomplish almost the same task in sheer numbers destruction without hurting the party too much.
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4 years ago ::
Apr 08, 2009 - 12:28PM
#30
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- Senior Volunteer Community Lead
Date Joined:
Aug 19, 2007
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Very few zones have a Doctor Device effect of spreading and amplifying - start at one point and it collides with those within 5, then those within 5 of those, then within 5 of those, and there are actually very few encounters you can't clear out all the minions.
A lot of encounters should have minions trickle in or get created during the fight, all the same, but any tactic that makes the two rods trick not work negates Shock Sphere hitting more than 1 minion, nevermind more mundane options like Scorching Burst, and what kind of fun is that?
Then again, I'm the guy who'd be happier if autodamage without an attack roll didn't kill minions at all, so I'm hardly the target audience.
Keith Richmond
Living Forgotten Realms Epic Writing Director
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