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4 years ago ::
Apr 24, 2009 - 8:04AM
#121
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- Senior Volunteer Community Lead
Date Joined:
Aug 19, 2007
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Changing the rules to suit your view isn't allowed.
But researching the rules to prove that something doesn't work a way that seems it surely can't is most definitely allowed.
There's a very important distinction there.
It's also important to remember that people get the rules wrong an awful lot - sometimes you need to pause and go 'Err, does it really work that way' and depending on the player or DM, it may or may not, but checking is certainly important.
Keith Richmond Living Forgotten Realms Epic Writing Director
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4 years ago ::
Apr 24, 2009 - 9:52AM
#122
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Changing the rules to suit your view isn't allowed.
But researching the rules to prove that something doesn't work a way that seems it surely can't is most definitely allowed.
There's a very important distinction there. Looking for a way to make your square peg fit a round hole isn't 'finding out how it works' it's having a conclusion and going from there.
When a player does this he is trying to 'cheese' the system.. when a DM does it, it is far worse.
The core of the issue:
If it's really just about 'fun for the table' then leave it to the table. Discuss it with the player or players and see how they feel.
However, if it's just about you wanting the rules to be a different way then make house rules and be upfront and honest about it. If that doesn't sit well with your players then you have to make a choice between your fun and the table's fun.
For me having a RPGA judge look for fringe interpretations to put forth their house rules as 'core' detracts from my game. I wonder what else they have changed, and how much I can trust them as a judge. Furthermore its put forth in what seems to me a dishonest way and that doesn't sit well with me.
-James
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4 years ago ::
Apr 24, 2009 - 10:31AM
#123
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- Senior Volunteer Community Lead
Date Joined:
Aug 19, 2007
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So, if a player was under the impression that healing word worked on all valid targets (ie, you and allies) within a close burst 5 and that seemed wrong to a DM, so they researched how it worked, and let the player know that no, it's just one target, would that be bad? Would it only be bad if someone from customer service had responded to a question with 'uhh, I guess it's a close burst 5 so it works' and the DM contradicted the CS person?
You're absolutely right that judges and players should not try to break the system to the detriment of the table.
That's quite different from 'Err, this seems broken, does it actually work that way?' and someone responding 'no, because place and transfer are different keywords' - which oddly is a position I've probably encountered from more sources than that I have that it works (which surprises me, given the way most folks on the internet seem to deal with D&D), with at least some claiming they had seen CS rulings to that effect (and I think one actually produced a copy, though my memory only reproduces the ones where CS said otherwise so I'm a little iffier there)... at any rate, as far as I can tell, that makes it not a fringe case where a DM is trying to screw someone, but an honest to goodness quandary that has been brought up to the folks running the game as an 'Err, what?'.
Now, if a DM wanted to say 'Rod of Reaving doesn't kill minions. Nor Cleave, nor Rain of Steel, etc - you need to _hit_ them' and a player pointed out that it was clearly not the case, and the DM said 'well, they'd be too easy to kill if I let that work' and persisted, then I completely agree with you.
Keith Richmond Living Forgotten Realms Epic Writing Director
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4 years ago ::
Apr 25, 2009 - 2:36AM
#124
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- Dragon Slayer
- If only he would apply himself
- Dammit Jim, this is Star Trek, not D&D!
Date Joined:
Jan 31, 2006
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The 4E designers don't seem to have a problem with easy minion killing from warlocks. I was reading the Hexer paragon path in Arcane power... the 11th level encounter power is a close blast 5 that has an effect of placing your curse on all enemies in the blast. This removes the need for the Rod of Corruption, effectively freeing up a rod slot.
Open up with Hexblast, cursing everything with the effect and thus dealing damage with the Rod of Reaving (and clearing minions, though that isn't the point), then the power does additional damage to anything it hits. You could even AP and use Cursebite for more AoE damage on all the cursed foes. You could use a Vicious Rod as the main rod for better curse damage, or you could still go with Corruption if you think you really need to transfer the curse further, though Vicious or another Rod seems a better choice. It is a really nice power for increasing targeting flexibility, not to mention AoE damage.
Follow my blog and Twitter feed with Dark Sun campaign design and DM tips! Dark Sun's Ashes of Athas Campaign is now available for home play (PM me with your e-mail to order the campaign adventures).
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4 years ago ::
Apr 25, 2009 - 8:34PM
#125
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- Dragon Slayer
- If only he would apply himself
- Dammit Jim, this is Star Trek, not D&D!
Date Joined:
Jan 31, 2006
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The 'transfer v. place' debate is likely settled by Arcane Power. There are at least two feats where the term 'use' is employed (such as with Relentless Curse: "When an enemy cursed by you is reduced to 0 hit points, you can use your Warlock's Curse as a free action"). Given that this third word to describe putting a curse onto a foe, and here with clearly no differentiation as to effect, I would think this should settle whether 'use', 'transfer', or 'place' are keywords. (Of course, I'm sure someone can come up with a reason, but it would seem pretty flimsy an argument at this point).
And I think the feat Shared Pact likely settles any problems with the difficulty of triggering aura damage for the Darklock, as you can put your boon on someone else within 3. Good stuff in Arcane Power!
Follow my blog and Twitter feed with Dark Sun campaign design and DM tips! Dark Sun's Ashes of Athas Campaign is now available for home play (PM me with your e-mail to order the campaign adventures).
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4 years ago ::
Apr 25, 2009 - 8:36PM
#126
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- Senior Volunteer Community Lead
Date Joined:
Aug 19, 2007
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Actually, that doesn't affect the argument at all - Warlock's Curse is a defined class feature that takes a minor action. This lets you use it as a free action. When you use it you place a curse... etc
Keith Richmond Living Forgotten Realms Epic Writing Director
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4 years ago ::
Apr 26, 2009 - 1:10AM
#127
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Date Joined:
Aug 18, 2007
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The 4E designers don't seem to have a problem with easy minion killing from warlocks. I was reading the Hexer paragon path in Arcane power... the 11th level encounter power is a close blast 5 that has an effect of placing your curse on all enemies in the blast. This removes the need for the Rod of Corruption, effectively freeing up a rod slot. Two things Arcane Hexer specifically uses the word "place" and it also says "any single target" meaning to get all targets you still need a Rod of Corruption.
So if you want to hit multiple targets with the Curse you need the Rod.
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4 years ago ::
Apr 26, 2009 - 9:38AM
#128
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- Senior Volunteer Community Lead
Date Joined:
Aug 19, 2007
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Re-tangent: Apparently it's not so clear whether Improved Fate of the Void multiples or not, since a CS response indicates it does. Meh.
Keith Richmond Living Forgotten Realms Epic Writing Director
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4 years ago ::
Apr 26, 2009 - 9:13PM
#129
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Date Joined:
Oct 11, 2007
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Re-tangent: Apparently it's not so clear whether Improved Fate of the Void multiples or not, since a CS response indicates it does. Meh. At the same time, this same CS person claims,
3)Does teleportation distance count as a part of the move needed to activate Shadow Walk's Concealment? 3. Teleportation will count towards the movement requirement of Shadow Walk. when the MM says about teleportation:
A creature that teleports is removed from play at the origin square and placed in the destination square. Teleporting does not provoke opportunity attacks, and the creature does not move through the intervening squares. I've been told, by CS, that because the warlock doesn't move in the intervening squares, it's not movement.
Also, this same guy says that Shadow Walk allows you a Stealth check, and well, I'm pretty sure that's been well hashed-out already.
So I dunno.
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4 years ago ::
Apr 27, 2009 - 1:10AM
#130
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Date Joined:
Sep 25, 2006
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I am not certain where I stand on this so here is my opinion on this debate. I will walk through my thought procees as I think about it. The words transfer and place are used because they are words and they convey meaning. Now I am not the best educated person in the world so to be specifc and fully understand the situation. So, to understand what these words mean I will look them up in a dictionary. Starting with place. Main Entry: place Function: verb Inflected Form(s): placed; plac·ing Date: 15th century transitive verb 1 a: to put in or as if in a particular place or position : set This could be what you are doing but if this was the correct definition then you could curse the floor or that seat over there. so I would have to say no this is not what it is meant when you curse someone.
b: to present for consideration Also not what you are doing.
c: to put in a particular state That's the ticket! This is what you are doing, you are making the target cursed you are placing the curse upon them or in other words you are cursing them.
d: to direct to a desired spot e: to cause (the voice) to produce free and well resonated singing or speaking tones 2 a: to assign to a position in a series or category : rank b: estimate c: to identify by connecting with an associated context 3: to distribute in an orderly manner : arrange 4: to appoint to a position 5: to find a place (as a home or employment) for 6 a: to give (an order) to a supplier b: to give an order for c: to try to establish a connection for intransitive verb : to earn a given spot in a competition ; specifically : to come in second (as in a horse race) no, no, no, no no and no. These are not the correct definitions so it looks like we have just one winner form the Merriam Websters dictionary. now lets look up transfer.
Main Entry: 1trans·fer Pronunciation: \tran(t)s-ˈfər, ˈtran(t)s-ˌ\ Function: verb Inflected Form(s): trans·ferred; trans·fer·ring Etymology: Middle English transferren, from Anglo-French transferrer, from Latin transferre, from trans- + ferre to carry — more at bear Date: 14th century transitive verb 1 a: to convey from one person, place, or situation to another : move, shift You are doing this you are moving the curse from one person to another but does this jive with the definition of place? I could say yes and this means the the original curse is being moved and no new curse is being created but the moving does put the target into a new state and that jives with eh definition of place
c: to put in a particular state You are transferring the curse from one target to another putting the new target into the state of being cursed.
b: to cause to pass from one to another : transmit c: transform, change These also seem to be similar to the first.
2: to make over the possession or control of : convey 3: to print or otherwise copy from one surface to another by contact Still nothing that would stop the secondary target from being put into a new state by the warlock which would fulfill the definition of curse.
well if the English language supports it then I suppose it works. If they were keywords then they would be different but I don't see them in the keyword lists. Then the only thing left is timing. Rod of Corruption says
When you place your Warlock’s Curse on a target, the creature takes 1 damage. this is definitely active grammar and shows action on part of the warlock he is placing his curse, we know that placing means to put into the state of curse. This says that when the target is put into the state of curse one damage is dealt. This could be seen as at the same time as the curse is being placed or possibly being triggered by the placing of the curse. When denotes a point in time and that time is the placing of the curse so it could be seen either way. so does a creature trigger a pact boon or is it dead by the placing of the curse and not cursed at all. the timing would be: intent to put curse start to curse trigger event dead creature curse is not placed due to non living target. I could see this but D&D has no defining timing rules so I would probably say no to this interpretation in my games.
If not in the timing then maybe the active sentence the warlock is cursing and with the Rod of corruption it is what that does the cursing the warlock or the Rod? lets see Rod of Corruption says:
Whenever your pact boon is triggered, instead of taking its normal benefit you can transfer your Warlock’s Curse to each enemy within 5 squares of the original target. Nope this is still active wording and the warlock is making the choice to have the other targets put into the state of cursed.
all in all I don't like combos but given that I can only find a loose interpretation of timing that doesn't really exist in the rules and nothing else to keep this combo from working I would have to say that it works and if some of the players at the table seem to not be having fun because of its use I will ask the player nicely not to use ti. I will not force him. if he decides he does not wish to give it up for the sake of the table then I will DME the creature to have less minions. I will try not to remove them all so he has something to kill with his combo but I will remove enough to keep the fight interesting for the rest of the table. On the other hand if the table seems cool with it then I will either add some minions for the combo killer to kill or not change the mods at all and run them how they are written.
Thanks, for letting me walk through my thoughts on the matter. -red
It's a sad state of affairs when DMs measure their success in total party kills and players in the damage they deal.
Red
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