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All I know is there is wording that says you can treat a staff as a quarterstaff to use it as a melee weapon. There are examples to back that up. There is no rules that says you can do the oppsite. The name of the weapon group doesn't mean anything in this case. Otherwise why would there be a staff listed in the adeventuring gear section on page 222?

There are explicit exception rules given out here: A staff can be treated as a quarterstaff for melee attacks, a warlock or sorcerer can use a magic dagger as an implement, a swordmage can use a light blade or heavy blade as an implement, etc. These are all rule exceptions. There is no rule in the RAW that says a quarterstaff can be used as a staff implement.

Telvin3d wrote:

I'd say that quarterstaffs are perfectly legal to use as implements. Like others have said above, the wizard description simply lists 'staffs' as legal implements. This is the same way that Swordmages have 'light blade' and 'heavy blade' listed as implements.

It's a more accurate comparison to say a quarterstaff can be used as an implement since it's part of the staff weapon group like a Wizard of the Spiral Tower PP can use a greatsword as an implement since it's also a heavy blade.

Oh wait... they can't? They can only use longswords? But they're all part of the heavy blade weapon group...

To argue that 'staffs' does not include the 'staff' weapon group would imply that Swordmages can only use swords form the sword implements tables, which don't exist.

You're right, no sword implement table exists. But a staff implements do. Swordmages specifically say they can use magical light and heavy blades (weapons) as implements. The wizard can use a staff implement, and then they give a whole of bunch of staff implements to choose from. They then tell you that you can use it as quarterstaff. It isn't actually a quarterstaff, but you can use the same stats if you have to use it as a melee weapon.

Now point me to the rules that say that a quarterstaff can be used as an implement. When you can show me the text that says that and not a conclusion based on mental gymnastics, then I'll buy it.

I can bash someone over the head with my orb as an improvised weapon... so does that mean I can wield a +1 bar stool as an implement since it is also an improvised weapon?

Telvin3d wrote:

And rogues don't get proficiency in light blades despite having proficiency in both daggers and short swords. What's your point? Wizards can use staffs as implements. Quarterstaffs are part of the staff weapon group.

Yet staffs are not. They have no weapon group. That's because an implement is something different. It's listed separately. Quarterstaff is part of the staff weapon group, but quarterstaff (weapon) != staff (implement)

Actually, it simply lists light and heavy blade. No mention of magic.

True, and you have a nonmagical implement as well. I cut out the middle man because you get no benefit from a non-magical implement.

The only mental gymnastics involved are in reading 'staff' to refer to the weapon group the same way that you read the swordmage's 'light blade' as referring to the 'light blade' weapon group. If staff=weapon group then quarterstaffs, as part of the weapon group are legal.

I see nothing showing me that staff (weapon group) = staff (implement). I see nothing that says that a quarterstaff can be treated as an implement. I see nothign that says that staffs are part of the staff weapon group (the equipment chart on page 222 nor any of the magic item entries for staffs in the PHB, AV, etc. list any of them being a part of a weapon group). I do see rules saying that a staff implement can be used as a weapon. That doesn't mean that the opposite holds true.

If it is so obvious, then why do we need a rule to point out that you can use a staff implement as a weapon?

And if you don't read it this way, then the swordmages are in real trouble because I have never run into an item called a Light Blade +2. Show me where it says they can use a longsword as an implement.

Apples and oranges. Swordmages have two weapon groups listed as usable implements. A staff is a specific implement and a weapon group. Implements have no weapon groups. Staffs have an exception rule applied to them: "Unlike other implements, a staff also functions as a melee weapon (treat it as a quarterstaff ). When used in melee, a staff applies its enhancement bonus and critical damage dice just as a weapon does."

This is is making it clear that a staff is not a weapon. It is, after all, an implement. So how can it then be in the staff weapon group?

There is no rule in existence that says: "Unlike other weapons, a quarterstaff also functions as an implement (treat it as a staff). When used as an arcane focus, a quarterstaff staff applies its enhancement bonus and critical damage dice just as an implement does."

Ah, but while you could certainly get a +2 barstool, barstools are not a subset of orbs.

Of course I'm being facetious anyway since you can't attack with implements (except staffs which have an exception rule).

In all seriousness, I don't think many people would choose to take a quarterstaff as an implement. The vast majority of weapons don't have powers that work very well for spells. The one possible argument in LFR is that you will see a +3 weapon long before you will find a +3 staff, but even that is marginal because it will not have a useful property.

The only instance I could see in doing so would be a melee class that MCs with an arcane/divine class that can use a staff.

That said, I think it IS rules as written. If it is not rules as indented, then it needs serious errata. The designers should have known problems could crop up from using one word to designate two similar types of equipment.

Agreed on the two groups of equipment with the same word. I respectfully disagree and believe that no quarterstaffs as implements is the RAW since there's no exception rule allowing it and weapons and implements are two separate, exclusive groups of items (with exception rules allowing weapons to be used as implements).

Even if you look under Arcane Implement in the Adventuring Gear section of the PHB it says:

Wizards use orbs, staffs, or wands as focus items for their spells, while warlocks use rods or wands. Using a nonmagical implement confers no benefit. You can purchase a magic implement to gain an enhancement bonus to attack rolls and damage rolls with your arcane powers. A staff implement can also function as a quarterstaff.

Emphasis mine. The exception rule is pointed out again. Under the Staff weapon group it says:

Staff: In its most basic form, a staff is a long piece of wood or some other substance, roughly the same diameter along its whole length.

No mention whatsoever of being able to use it as an implement. So basically we have an implement saying you can use it as a weapon, but not vice versa. I could not in good conscience allow that at a table I was running.