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4 years ago ::
Mar 12, 2009 - 5:33AM
#1
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Over the six months I've played/judged LFR, I've run into one or two people who not only skirt the edge of Unaligned, given the chance, they'd dive headfirst into Evil. Obviously, this is against the spirit of the RPGA guidelines, as the PCs are the heroes of the story, and heroes shouldn't be doing dispicable acts like torturing prisoners unnecessarily, murder, and so on.
I've dug through the documentation to get an idea on what to do with these people that insist on such acts, and while I have given them warnings, I couldn't find anything on what to do if people persist in such acts. What options do I have?
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4 years ago ::
Mar 12, 2009 - 5:50AM
#2
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- Senior Volunteer Community Lead
- Dragon Slayer
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Date Joined:
Aug 31, 2005
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Over the six months I've played/judged LFR, I've run into one or two people who not only skirt the edge of Unaligned, given the chance, they'd dive headfirst into Evil. Obviously, this is against the spirit of the RPGA guidelines, as the PCs are the heroes of the story, and heroes shouldn't be doing dispicable acts like torturing prisoners unnecessarily, murder, and so on.
I've dug through the documentation to get an idea on what to do with these people that insist on such acts, and while I have given them warnings, I couldn't find anything on what to do if people persist in such acts. What options do I have?
Keeping in mind that the current RPGA Rules are due to be revamped Soon⁚ you could possibly use the existing rules and warn them about "Unsporting Conduct."
Other options include simply refusing to GM for those players, or simply disregarding their "evil" actions or using DME (albeit a variant that will be undoubtedly much debated) to "tone-down" their actions, or even flat-out deny them acts of evil.
In the long run, your best bet is to discuss it with the players, point out that this is a non-evil campaign, and try to see if THEY feel their actions are evil - and if so, find out why the insist on continuing.
Wolf Star76 Community Advocate (SVCL) for D&D Organized Play, Avalon Hill, and the DCI/WPN LFR Community Manager DDi Guide  Created by MyFitnessPal - Free Calorie Counter
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4 years ago ::
Mar 12, 2009 - 11:23AM
#3
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Date Joined:
Oct 17, 2008
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Ok, the following is not nice…
But, if you talk to them again, and they continue to do it, set your next adventure in a town like Waterdeep or Baldur’s Gate. Then when they break the law with one of their evil acts, have them thrown in jail for an encounter or 2. Don’t give them the XP for the encounters they did not participate in.
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4 years ago ::
Mar 12, 2009 - 12:03PM
#4
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Date Joined:
May 19, 2004
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Subtlety is not your friend here. Players like this tend to benefit from subtle hints by "failing to recognize them". They are violating the spirit of the game, most likely with the intent of maximizing their fun at the expense of the other players and DM.
You have to act decisively. Tell them, flat out, that evil action are not acceptable and if you see any future evil actions from their characters, they will be prevented from playing any future LFR games. Worst case scenario: they leave or you kick them out. Best case scenario: they shape up. I would bet on the first. Good riddance.
-SYB
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4 years ago ::
Mar 12, 2009 - 5:02PM
#5
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Date Joined:
Dec 25, 2006
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When you say torture, are you just talking about waterboarding or something serious like pulling out fingernails? And for murder, was it just an annoying gnome or kobold, or something serious like a higher mammal?
:P
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4 years ago ::
Mar 22, 2009 - 8:14AM
#6
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I'm talking about definite torture, with the hot iron brands and everything. I'm playing an Unaligned Paladin, so I've no real problem with "rendition," especially against the people that attacked us. Additionally, in a different part of the same adventure, we took some prisoners from a different fight, and after getting information from them, he wanted to dispatch them in less-than-humane ways. Live burials came up, very briefly, at which point I put them to the sword. I might not have a problem with extracting information, but there's some things you just don't do. Spoiler:
Show
As for what was attacking us, we were playing "At the Foot of the Lighthouse." The encounters in question were the first combat and the skill challenge in the town. There's a tiny bit of a grey area, given who these people work for, but I believe he crossed the line with his suggestions.
These are not isolated incidents, either. His first choice for deities was Asmodeus, followed by Bane and Cyric until he finally settled for Jurgal. The only reason he changed is because we told him his character was illegal otherwise.
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4 years ago ::
Mar 22, 2009 - 11:39AM
#7
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Date Joined:
Aug 21, 2007
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DMs for LFR adventures who have to deal with players who want to play their PCs as doing evil acts do face the dilemma of whether to allow it, ignore it, to just say no, or what. Previous versions of D&D did at least somewhat address the question of alignment change or drift, but in a Living Campaign, this has always been one of the more difficult issues to deal with.
I recommend two spots to be your benchmark. In PH, page 20, from the description of Evil Alignment and Chaotic Evil Alignment, I would ascribe deliberate torture to achieve some gain to be Evil, and deliberate torture for no purpose other than to just cause pain and destruction to be Chaotic Evil.
Repeated behavior is pretty clear, but then in a Living Campaign, a DM might not witness repeated behavior. And gamer opinions about the impact of one act of Evil when the 4E rules do not explicitly touch on that will vary widely.
I think the RPGA DM should first try to follow the troubleshooting suggestions in the DMG, see page 32, under Problem Player/Out of Control Player. The second paragraph says first to talk to the player about the kind of campaign we are running. In the case of LFR, it is clearly a non-evil campaign in so far as PCs. You may be heroic, or you may be the "show me the money" type of mercenary, but you should not be "I like to cause pain, death and destruction, slobber, slobber,..." type of PC. If that does not curb the unwanted behavior, then you progress to the second part of that paragraph where you tell the player they are being disruptive and the rest of the table needs that player to be part of the team. The disruptive word is the cue that RPGA sanctions could follow. How disruptive is the player being to the play or are they willing to drop it so the play can continue?
Many players do like to play "edgy" characters and it is sometimes hard to figure out where the line is. Mostly, if the other players are becoming uncomfortable, then you have likely passed a line of acceptability.
My (good) paladin of Selune will generally be the pragmatic fighter of evil and doer of good, but if an adversary worships Shar, my character will show them no mercy. He won't torture them; just no prisoners.
If you really know the player's desire was to play an evilly aligned character, then someone certainly needs to have a private conversation with them as to what is acceptable and not acceptable in this campaign.
Keith
Keith Hoffman
LFR Writing Director for Waterdeep
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4 years ago ::
Mar 23, 2009 - 5:01AM
#8
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Date Joined:
Mar 26, 2008
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Mostly, if the other players are becoming uncomfortable, then you have likely passed a line of acceptability.
I think that's a good benchmark to use.
Obviously, this is against the spirit of the RPGA guidelines, as the PCs are the heroes of the story, and heroes shouldn't be doing dispicable acts like torturing prisoners unnecessarily, murder, and so on.
Maybe I'm just naughty but I enjoy my players being bloodthirsty and horrible people :P I also don't mind playing the occasional one myself 
For example they tortured someone into gaining information. When I flat out told them that additional torture will not gain any new information and that he has told them everything he knows, they carried out the threat anyway.
I didn't find anything overly wrong with that. And that's also the worst I've seen anyone do.
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3 years ago ::
Feb 15, 2010 - 9:45AM
#9
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Date Joined:
Dec 13, 2006
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Our most recent game had a few of our PCs capturing humanNPCs, intimidating them to gather information and then slitting throats depending on whether the PCs liked the answers or not, and on too many occasions just for the fun of it.
After the first couple of post-encounter murders, a few of the other PCs felt uncomfortable and began to wearily eye their cohorts. They started trying to settle the murderous PCs down and began making comments to them trying to convince them murder was the wrong action to take.
Right or Wrong here is how I handled it:
First, the group began seeing WANTED (for Questioning) posters with their sketched faces on them all over town. This brought on a -2 to all social checks in the town.
Secondly, when that didn't work, they were brought in for questioning. They tried to BLUFF their way through it with the ole 'I did it in self-defence and here are my witnesses' bit. They were advised that they would be watched closely from that point on.
When it happened again, the perpetrators were docked 50% XP for the encounter(s) in which they continued their evil acts.
Next game is part two in this mini-campaign. We'll see if the murderous acts have been curbed or not.
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3 years ago ::
Feb 15, 2010 - 10:40AM
#10
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Date Joined:
Oct 28, 2003
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Dock gold, not xp. Docking xp actually advances them in the gold to xp ratio, but docking gold hurts them in the long run, and can represent fines, bribes, or bail paid to town officials.
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