In the RPGA, can I choose a dead god as my divine power source? Could I make a paladin or cleric of, say, Helm? Or is there some rule that prohibits this? It's not like it would provide any statistical benefit - it'd just be for the sake of fluff.
-Unmaker
In the RPGA, can I choose a dead god as my divine power source? Could I make a paladin or cleric of, say, Helm? Or is there some rule that prohibits this? It's not like it would provide any statistical benefit - it'd just be for the sake of fluff.-Un
No. See CCG 1.8 and the FRCG or FRPG referenced by it.
BTW, I don't think of the setting as fluff. (Fluff to me is what color is a magic missile.) Worshipping a dead god would have impact on interactions with the setting (the NPCs at least). In a home campaign the DM can change or ignore the setting as he or she might like.
Keith
No. See CCG 1.8 and the FRCG or FRPG referenced by it.BTW, I don't think of the setting as fluff. (Fluff to me is what color is a magic missile.) Worshipping a dead god would have impact on interactions with the setting (the NPCs at least). In a
Select a deity for your character, if applicable. See the Forgotten Realms Campaign Guide or Player’s Guide for a list of deities available in the Realms. If you’ve chosen a deity from the Player’s Handbook, listed below is an equivalency chart so that you can convert your character’s choice to the appropriate campaign-specific deity.
Helm isn't a listed god in either source, so unfortunately no, you cannot list him as your primary worshipped deity in LFR.
There's nothing saying you can't honor him, however. My wizard often whispers a quick prayer anytime she encounters a shrine or other remnant of Mystra's faith. But her primary deity is Sehanine/Angharradh.
-karma
Helm isn't a listed god in either source, so unfortunately no, you cannot list him as your primary worshipped deity in LFR.There's nothing saying you can't honor him, however. My wizard often whispers a quick prayer anytime she encounters a shrine or
No. See CCG 1.8 and the FRCG or FRPG referenced by it.
BTW, I don't think of the setting as fluff. (Fluff to me is what color is a magic missile.) Worshipping a dead god would have impact on interactions with the setting (the NPCs at least). In a home campaign the DM can change or ignore the setting as he or she might like.
Keith
It's unquestionably fluff. Fluff comprises elements of story and concept. Crunch is the mechanic by which those elements find articulation. Granted, each informs the other - which is the point you make. Whether or not it's legal in the RPGA is, of course, another matter entirely.
-Unmaker
It's unquestionably fluff. Fluff comprises elements of story and concept. Crunch is the mechanic by which those elements find articulation. Granted, each informs the other - which is the point you make. Whether or not it's legal in the RPGA is, of co
Paladins and clerics, probably. PHB p. 91, "Paladins are not granted their powers directly by their deity". p. 61 "As a cleric, your deity does not directly grant powers."
So why should the god have to be alive? Still, the CCG might overrule this.
Paladins and clerics, probably. PHB p. 91, "Paladins are not granted their powers directly by their deity". p. 61 "As a cleric, your deity does not directly grant powers."So why should the god have to be alive? Still, the CCG might overrule this.
Paladins and clerics, probably. PHB p. 91, "Paladins are not granted their powers directly by their deity". p. 61 "As a cleric, your deity does not directly grant powers."
So why should the god have to be alive? Still, the CCG might overrule this.
This topic has been beaten to death in earlier threads.
At any rate, CCG 1.8, p. 7, is the important thing here:
Select a deity for your character, if applicable. See the Forgotten Realms Campaign Guide or Player’s Guide for a list of deities available in the Realms.
Note that "dead gods", such as Helm, are not listed in those books, and, thus, are not available for the campaign.
This topic has been beaten to death in earlier threads. At any rate, CCG 1.8, p. 7, is the important thing here:Note that "dead gods", such as Helm, are not listed in those books, and, thus, are not available for the campaign.
I'd allow it. But I'd ask him where he got his powers from, as there is no church of Helm in forgotten realms.
And from there I'd figure out how church members would react to him. Heck reading about that in the PHB...I want to make a Cleric or Pally who become disillusioned with his/her god...and no longer follows the path or tenants..but to keep using their powers, still need to inact the prayers and rights of the temple of that god. It could make for some interesting roleplay...
Just for the sake of it.I'd allow it. But I'd ask him where he got his powers from, as there is no church of Helm in forgotten realms.And from there I'd figure out how church members would react to him. Heck reading about that in the PHB...I want t
Paladins and clerics, probably. PHB p. 91, "Paladins are not granted their powers directly by their deity". p. 61 "As a cleric, your deity does not directly grant powers."
That wasn't how it worked in the Forgotten Realms, I don't see any real reason for it to mysteriously change now.
Plus I don't like that fluff :P
(Regardless, others have said why you can't in LFR).
As a non-Divine class (such as a Wizard) you're welcome to worship anyone AFAIK.
That wasn't how it worked in the Forgotten Realms, I don't see any real reason for it to mysteriously change now.Plus I don't like that fluff :P(Regardless, others have said why you can't in LFR).As a non-Divine class (such as a Wizard) you're welcom
[INDENT]Page 2: "In addition, characters may not worship a deity with an alignment of evil or chaotic evil."[/INDENT]
So yes, you can worship a dead god. Though you could worship The Sock Puppet if you really wanted to as well, as long as it's not evil
Can you get divine power from it? Here's what the CCG states:
[INDENT]Page 7: "Select a deity for your character, if applicable. See the Forgotten Realms Campaign Guide or Player’s Guide for a list of deities available in the Realms." [/INDENT]
That still includes the dead gods, as long as they're dead FR gods. Mystra for example is referenced in several places in the FRPG. Additionally, since some races are long-lived, it's quite conceivable that you were vested in your clerical duties while Mystra was still alive.
Keep in mind that clerics/paladins get their divine powers from their rites and ceremonies. This is unlike the invoker, which directly channels their deity's power.
So guess what? Cultists and clerics of dead gods can still use divine powers, since it's based on their rites and ceremonies. In fact, there's even an LFR scenario where you can fight cultists of Relkath (an old Yuir god).
This is a great plot device for authors of scenarios and novels. It allows them to be actual threats and foes, and allows them to do things like cast powerful summoning spells, and maybe even work to resurrect their dead god!
As such, you can't really throw out the baby with the bath water here.
However, in regards to INTENT: LFR Admins (ShawnM) have stated in the past, unofficially, that you shouldn't do this. You can say and roleplay whatever you want, but at the end of the day it's actually an FR deity that is alive that is at least indirectly the source of your divine powers. So your PC might really believe that they're a cleric of Mystra, but according to Shawn it would be another deity (perhaps Shar?) that is actually the indirect source of your divine power. Mwhahaha...
Here's what the CCG 1.8 actually states:[INDENT]Page 2: "In addition, characters may not worship a deity with an alignment of evil or chaotic evil."[/INDENT]So yes, you can worship a dead god. Though you could worship The Sock Puppet if you really w
Almost forgot... another reason that clerics/paladins don't get their powers from their deity:
It's another plot device. It allows authors to have disillusioned paladins, or clerics gone bad, to still use their divine powers.
Almost forgot... another reason that clerics/paladins don't get their powers from their deity:It's another plot device. It allows authors to have disillusioned paladins, or clerics gone bad, to still use their divine powers.
As a non-Divine class (such as a Wizard) you're welcome to worship anyone AFAIK.
Nope, still can't worship an evil god. No worshippers of Bane, no matter their alignment, allowed.
That one has been beaten to death, too.
CCG v1.8 page 2]Character alignments must be unaligned, good, or lawful good. In addition, characters may not worship a deity with an alignment of evil or chaotic evil.[/quote wrote:
Character alignments must be unaligned, good, or lawful good. In addition, characters may not worship a deity with an alignment of evil or chaotic evil.
CCG v1.8 page 7]Select a deity for your character, if applicable. See the Forgotten Realms Campaign Guide or Player’ wrote:
Select a deity for your character, if applicable. See the Forgotten Realms Campaign Guide or Player’s Guide for a list of deities available in the Realms. If you’ve chosen a deity from the Player’s Handbook, listed below is an equivalency chart so that you can convert your character’s choice to the appropriate campaign-specific deity. You may need to alter your character’s alignment slightly to align more properly with the Realms deity. If you have a Channel Divinity feat from the Player’s Handbook, it is a valid character option for the Realms-equivalent deity. The Forgotten Realms Player’s Guide will have Channel Divinity feats for all the Realms deities listed on the chart.
I am not going to quote the deity translation chart, also on page 7, since these boards have problems with formatting charts, or maybe it is just that I don't know how to format a chart on the boards here.
But, if you want to worship a deity in LFR, it has to be one of the deities listed in the FRPG or PHB, with the proviso that some of the PHB deities exist in FR under a different name and/or alignment.
And you can't worship a dead deity. As mentioned, the PTB have said no.
Nope, still can't worship an evil god. No worshippers of Bane, no matter their alignment, allowed.That one has been beaten to death, too.I am not going to quote the deity translation chart, also on page 7, since these boards have problems with format
It's unquestionably fluff. Fluff comprises elements of story and concept. Crunch is the mechanic by which those elements find articulation. Granted, each informs the other - which is the point you make. Whether or not it's legal in the RPGA is, of course, another matter entirely.
-Unmaker
Hmmm. I hate to sound picky, but since I just questioned it, obviously it is not "unquestionably fluff." So far as I know, those are unofficial terms and any definition is equally valid. Personally I stay away from the terms fluff and crunch.
Whether a DM creates his own designed setting, or uses a commercially supplied setting, if the DM wants to comply with the attributes of the setting, and deities are setting attributes, then so be it.
For FR, the full list of deities in 4E is on pages 80-81 of the FRCG.
I stand by my statement, you can't worship a dead deity. (You might morn a dead deity.) Worshipping deities have implications in the Forgotten Realms setting.
NPCs may do things that PCs can't do. I am fully aware that in some cases, some cults have appeared where some alleged deity (dead, fake, or gone) was impersonated by another deity. You may indeed encounter cultists worshipping someone or something who is not listed on the above pages. At least at present, that is not an option for PCs in LFR and I doubt it will be.
Keith
Hmmm. I hate to sound picky, but since I just questioned it, obviously it is not "unquestionably fluff." So far as I know, those are unofficial terms and any definition is equally valid. Personally I stay away from the terms fluff and crunch. Whet
NPCs may do things that PCs can't do. I am fully aware that in some cases, some cults have appeared where some alleged deity (dead, fake, or gone) was impersonated by another deity. You may indeed encounter cultists worshiping someone or something who is not listed on the above pages. At least at present, that is not an option for PCs in LFR and I doubt it will be.
To be technical, we have only Shawn's unofficial ruling. Per the RAW, you can. But as for intent, yes you're correct.
And also... we've already seen in LFR clerics/cultists that venerate dead gods use powers. This is part of the rules, even in FR. They get their powers from the rites/ceremonies of their initiation, as per the D&D rules (unlike Invokers, which directly channel their deity's power). But I agree with you that the intent is that this is not an option for PCs.
To be technical, we have only Shawn's unofficial ruling. Per the RAW, you can. But as for intent, yes you're correct.And also... we've already seen in LFR clerics/cultists that venerate dead gods use powers. This is part of the rules, even in FR.
Kind of a side question here...but what exactly is the rules definition of worship? For instance you have your "worshiping every sunday" Christians, and your "christmas and easter" Christians...One could concievably not necessarily worship, but still be aware of and like the ideas of an evil god, like Bane for instance. One certainly couldn't gain any mechanical benefit from it, but one could certainly be of a stance "Bane? Yeah, I kinda like him.", and be within the rules. Still goes against intent somewhat though...
Kind of a side question here...but what exactly is the rules definition of worship? For instance you have your "worshiping every sunday" Christians, and your "christmas and easter" Christians...One could concievably not necessarily worship, but still
To be technical, we have only Shawn's unofficial ruling. Per the RAW, you can. But as for intent, yes you're correct.
Well, there was this:
Sean Molley wrote:
The short answer is that if you want to use the divine power source, you are going to have to worship a non-evil entity that is listed in the Forgotten Realms Campaign Guide. Divine power has to come from an extant divine being, and PCs have the further restriction that they are not allowed to worship evil beings.
So no, no worshiping dead Gods, especially if you are a Paladin or Cleric. If the God isn't listed in the lists of Gods in the FR books, then you cannot choose it as your patron deity.
Well, there was this:So no, no worshiping dead Gods, especially if you are a Paladin or Cleric. If the God isn't listed in the lists of Gods in the FR books, then you cannot choose it as your patron deity.
And you can't worship a dead deity. As mentioned, the PTB have said no.
As Corwynn said, per the rules we can. I don't see any real reason to say A 300 year old Warforged Wizard can't worship Mystra. I've seen players worship Mystra* and I've yet to see it break a mod or even have any meaningful impact on a mod.
But I tend to be pretty laidback.
* As the actual rules don't say we can't. Whether or not DMs can enforce unofficial rulings/forum posts by the PTB is something I don't know.
Forgot that people might want to do that.As Corwynn said, per the rules we can. I don't see any real reason to say A 300 year old Warforged Wizard can't worship Mystra. I've seen players worship Mystra* and I've yet to see it break a mod or even have
Hmmm. I hate to sound picky, but since I just questioned it, obviously it is not "unquestionably fluff." So far as I know, those are unofficial terms and any definition is equally valid. Personally I stay away from the terms fluff and crunch.
Certainly anyone can question anything. I can question the law of gravity if I so choose. It was merely a figure of speech. :-)
All terms are "unofficial." Terms mean whatever they mean until speakers need them to mean something else. Dictionaries don't dictate language - language dictates dictionaries. Even the terms established by the PHB and DMG were themselves informed by three decades of people playing D&D.
That being said, it's not true that "any definition is equally valid." The correct definition is the one that best matches the word or term as it is commonly used, or the definition that would be understood by the largest percentage of speakers.
As for the RPGA rules: I can't worship a dead god. Thanks everyone - that's all I wanted to know.
-Unmaker
Certainly anyone can question anything. I can question the law of gravity if I so choose. It was merely a figure of speech. :-)All terms are "unofficial." Terms mean whatever they mean until speakers need them to mean something else. Dictionaries don
Damn. There goes my concept for a Warforged Dhamphr Spellscarred Invoker with the Scales of War Background who worships Mystra. And talks with a lisp.
If you print the RPGA rules 1-sided, then turn it upside down up to a light to read it from the back side, you will see it clearly says that LFR characters cannot speak with a lisp. Maybe I should put that in the FAQ... :D
If you print the RPGA rules 1-sided, then turn it upside down up to a light to read it from the back side, you will see it clearly says that LFR characters cannot speak with a lisp. Maybe I should put that in the FAQ... :D
So no, no worshiping dead Gods, especially if you are a Paladin or Cleric. If the God isn't listed in the lists of Gods in the FR books, then you cannot choose it as your patron deity.
Quote: "Originally Posted by -Bander There are legitimate role-play & canon reasons for characters to worship dead gods in the Forgotton Realms."
You are entirely correct -- there are legitimate role-play and canon reasons for characters to worship dead gods in the Realms. But those characters cannot get divine power from dead gods in the Realms because dead gods cannot grant divine power.
I tried to choose the wording of my post as carefully as possible to make it clear that you can claim to worship whomever you want but the actual exercise of divine power requires a legitimate source (i.e. non-evil entity listed on the table in the FRCG).
There is nothing stopping you from claiming to worship Mystra. For that matter, there is nothing stopping any character who is really one thing from claiming to be something else. I might create a fighter who pretends to be a paladin (using Heal checks to pretend like he was using Lay on Hands, and so forth). But I can only carry that charade on as long as I do not actually have to do something that requires the use of divine power. No matter what I might claim from a roleplaying standpoint, my fighter's powers are still martial, not divine.
If your character wants to claim that he is a paladin of Mystra then he is welcome to claim that he is a paladin of Mystra. Nobody from the campaign staff is going to come to your house and take your character away. The DM will decide how seriously various NPCs do or do not take this claim -- that's all part of the fun of roleplaying. However, the cold hard fact of the world your character lives in is that he is not getting his divine power from Mystra. This is not a matter that is even open to debate (out of character -- in character, you can debate it all you want) because that is simply not how the world of Faerun works. Mystra is not granting any divine power to anybody, no matter how devout, because Mystra is dead. There is no divine power there to be granted.
Hope that helps make it a bit more clear. We're not trying to harsh anybody's mellow here, but at the same time, the campaign world works the way the campaign world works. __________________ Talk to you later --
Sean ---- M. Sean Molley LFR Global Administrator, Western Hemisphere (South)
Moreover, dead gods in Faerun may not grant powers now, but that hasn't always been the case that dead gods don't provide power:
FR Faiths & Pantheons 3.5E page 05: "Dead Deities The constant clash of deities also ensures a steady supply of dead deities whose temples now lie in ruin about Toril. Moreover, death doesn't neccessarily end the career of a deity of Toril. The possibility of resurrection always exists, as evidenced by the recent return of Bane. Small cults dedicated to the resurrection of one lost deity or another appear everywhere in Faerun. Sometimes the deity is beyond the reach of such cultists or never existed except in myth, and its adherants receive no divine backing in their endeavors. Other times, a dead deity retains enough power to provide divine backing to a handful of worshippers. Occasionally, another deity masquerades in the guise of a dead deity, in hopes of expanding its portfolio. Some dead human deities who retain a handful of adherents include Amaunator (a Netherese sun god), Bhaal (the former deity of murder), Ibrandul (a deity of caverns slain by Shar during the Time of Troubles), Moander (a deity of corruption slain by Finder Wyvernspur), and Myrkul (former god of death whose remaining essence infuses an artifact called the Crown of Horns)."
Moreover, 3.XE had the feat Servant of the Fallen gave access to the above gods and more.
Point being... there *is* precedence for getting power from dead gods in Faerun.
In character: worship any non-evil deity you like. Out of character: Follow the LFR character guide. Note that if you choose a channel divinity feat of a particular god (e.g. Berronar's Salve) you (the player) are accepting that your character's power is being granted by another god.
-Bander
Shawn also said the following:Re: Worshipping Dead Gods --------------------------------------------------------------------------------"Greetings...Quote:"Originally Posted by -Bander There are legitimate role-play & canon reasons for characters to
[INDENT]Page 7: "Select a deity for your character, if applicable. See the Forgotten Realms Campaign Guide or Player’s Guide for a list of deities available in the Realms." [/INDENT]
That still includes the dead gods, as long as they're dead FR gods.
I'd like you to point out where Helm is located in the 4E FR books? Or, heck, Shaundakul or Finder Wyvernspur.
Similarly, Mystra is mentioned in passing, yes, but is not detailed at all in the section that tells you about the various gods and exarchs.
-karma
I'd like you to point out where Helm is located in the 4E FR books? Or, heck, Shaundakul or Finder Wyvernspur.Similarly, Mystra is mentioned in passing, yes, but is not detailed at all in the section that tells you about the various gods and exarchs.
As for the RPGA rules: I can't worship a dead god.
That is the intent, yes.
Of course, you're free to roleplay almost anything you want. (not quite anything, but almost :P)
-Bander wrote:
Note that if you choose a channel divinity feat of a particular god (e.g. Berronar's Salve) you (the player) are accepting that your character's power is being granted by another god.
Absolutely. If you're going to roleplay as being a worshiper of Mystra, you should do it properly! But roleplayers already tend to make some sacrifices in order to develop their PC concept.
That is the intent, yes.Of course, you're free to roleplay almost anything you want. (not quite anything, but almost :P)Absolutely. If you're going to roleplay as being a worshiper of Mystra, you should do it properly! But roleplayers already tend
Moreover, 3.XE had the feat Servant of the Fallen gave access to the above gods and more.
Point being... there *is* precedence for getting power from dead gods in Faerun.
This is 4e, not 3.X. The new edition has thrown everything out the window. There is no precedence. The FR universe doesn't work the same way as it used to. You could say there's precedence for how the cosmology was in 3.X, but it isn't that way in 4e.
No matter how you cut it, it has been stated you cannot have a dead God as your patron deity. If you want to RP worshiping Mystra, knock yourself out. On the Deity line on your character sheet you cannot have her listed.
Personally, to me it smacks of people wanting to be "special" by trying to do something they can't do by the rules. "Hey, look at me! I worship Mystra even though she's dead and isn't coming back! Whee!" It's more of an attention grabber than imaginative. Especially when you could just as easily make a character concept that fits within the rules.
This is 4e, not 3.X. The new edition has thrown everything out the window. There is no precedence. The FR universe doesn't work the same way as it used to. You could say there's precedence for how the cosmology was in 3.X, but it isn't that way i
On the Deity line on your character sheet you cannot have her listed.
Really? Are you going to refuse non-divine characters at your table if they have a dead god on that line?
Dragon9 wrote:
Personally, to me it smacks of people wanting to be "special" by trying to do something they can't do by the rules. "Hey, look at me! I worship Mystra even though she's dead and isn't coming back! Whee!" It's more of an attention grabber than imaginative. Especially when you could just as easily make a character concept that fits within the rules.
This is D&D. Every character is basically saying "Wee! Look at me!" Otherwise we'd be playing farmers who never do anything exciting.
Sean]there are legitimate role-play and canon reasons for characters to worship dead gods in the Realms.
Its not against the rules. It isn't people trying to be attention seekers. Its someone playing a legitimate cha wrote:
there are legitimate role-play and canon reasons for characters to worship dead gods in the Realms.[/quote] Its not against the rules. It isn't people trying to be attention seekers. Its someone playing a legitimate character.
Really? Are you going to refuse non-divine characters at your table if they have a dead god on that line?This is D&D. Every character is basically saying "Wee! Look at me!" Otherwise we'd be playing farmers who never do anything exciting.Its not agai
Really? Are you going to refuse non-divine characters at your table if they have a dead god on that line?
No, they just go to a very bad place when they die. Aside from the fact that the rules tell you to choose a god listed in the FRPG and FRCS and I don't see Mystra, Helm, Tyr, and many others listed there.
This is D&D. Every character is basically saying "Wee! Look at me!" Otherwise we'd be playing farmers who never do anything exciting. Its not against the rules.
It's against the campaign rules. As already pointed out by campaign staff and the CCG.
It isn't people trying to be attention seekers. Its someone playing a legitimate character.
Yes they're seeking attention. No it isn't a legitimate choice. If it was was, then campaign staff wouldn't have said that you couldn't, and the CCG would tell you to pick a deity listed in the campaign sourcebooks. They'd tell you to pick any god you wanted.
No, they just go to a very bad place when they die. ;) Aside from the fact that the rules tell you to choose a god listed in the FRPG and FRCS and I don't see Mystra, Helm, Tyr, and many others listed there. It's against the campaign rules. As al
No, they just go to a very bad place when they die.
Where in a 4th edition source does it say this? :P
Dragon9 wrote:
It's against the campaign rules. As already pointed out by campaign staff
Am I wrong in thinking M. Sean Molley, LFR Global Administrator, Western Hemisphere (South) is a campaign staff member?
And while another look at the CCG does say I can't choose non-FRPG mentioned gods, it also says I can't choose a background outside of those listed in the FRPG. This means, my drow character must hail from a non-Drow city, correct? If so, and you try to enforce this, you're going to get a lot of angry drow players. Instead what I see people do is select the closest background (East Rift is a popular one), and then fluff out their background as being from a drow city. That is technically an illegal character from the RAW, just as technically my long-lived elven fighter can't worship a dead god. If you enforce one, you must enforce the other unless I've misunderstood the CCG.
Personally I'd like to work with players in creating characters they enjoy while making sure they don't break the game or have unfair advantages. Worship of dead gods or working around backgrounds is something I don't see as oh so eggrerious.
Where in a 4th edition source does it say this? :PAm I wrong in thinking M. Sean Molley, LFR Global Administrator, Western Hemisphere (South) is a campaign staff member? :confused:And while another look at the CCG does say I can't choose non-FRPG men
No, they just go to a very bad place when they die. Aside from the fact that the rules tell you to choose a god listed in the FRPG and FRCS and I don't see Mystra, Helm, Tyr, and many others listed there.
Mystra at least is there.
Dragon9 wrote:
It's against the campaign rules. As already pointed out by campaign staff and the CCG.
Repeating yourself doesn't make it true :P. It's not in the CCG. It's only in an unofficial ruling -- and even then you're still allowed to roleplay it.
Dragon9 wrote:
Yes they're seeking attention... snip... and the CCG would tell you to pick a deity listed in the campaign sourcebooks.
It's not uncommon for people to try and make their PC concept unusual. Let's face it, we're playing unusual people in a fantasy world.
And the CCG *does* tell you to pick a deity listed in the campaign sourcebooks.
Mystra at least is there. Repeating yourself doesn't make it true :P. It's not in the CCG. It's only in an unofficial ruling -- and even then you're still allowed to roleplay it.It's not uncommon for people to try and make their PC concept unusual
Can you get divine power from it? Here's what the CCG states:
[INDENT]Page 7: "Select a deity for your character, if applicable. See the Forgotten Realms Campaign Guide or Player’s Guide for a list of deities available in the Realms." [/INDENT]
That still includes the dead gods, as long as they're dead FR gods. Mystra for example is referenced in several places in the FRPG.
I am missing something. Where is the "list" that Mystra is on?
I am missing something. Where is the "list" that Mystra is on?
I am missing something. Where is the "list" that Mystra is on?
What you're missing is that Corwynn is trying to be cute with the letter of the rules.
Mystra doesn't appear on any of the lists of current gods in either the FRPG (pp.150-154) or the FRCG (pp. 72-81, particularly the tables on pp. 80-81).
However, because Mystra is mentioned in passing elsewhere in both books (particularly in sections describing the Spellplague), and because the CCG does not specify particular pages out of the FRCG or FRPG for those "lists", Corwynn's arguing that Mystra is a legal choice. Which is, of course, a serious stretch.
What you're missing is that Corwynn is trying to be cute with the letter of the rules.Mystra doesn't appear on any of the lists of current gods in either the FRPG (pp.150-154) or the FRCG (pp. 72-81, particularly the tables on pp. 80-81). However, be
I am missing something. Where is the "list" that Mystra is on?
Oh, wow. That's a really narrow reading. But okay, no problem. Let's go all the way.
If you look through the FRPG, you will find *no* lists of deities at all. And yet they mention the FRPG. Hmm...
No, I take it back. There is one deity mentioned in a list, a numbered list even! And it's... Mystra, on page 4. :P
(I'm not really taking any part of this line of thinking seriously though...)
Oh, wow. That's a really narrow reading. But okay, no problem. Let's go all the way.If you look through the FRPG, you will find *no* lists of deities at all. And yet they mention the FRPG. Hmm...No, I take it back. There is one deity mentioned
And the CCG *does* tell you to pick a deity listed in the campaign sourcebooks.
If you're going to quote it, so will I:
CCG]Select a deity for your character, if applicable. See the Forgotten Realms Campaign Guide or Player’ wrote:
Select a deity for your character, if applicable. See the Forgotten Realms Campaign Guide or Player’s Guide for a list of deities available in the Realms.
Yes, Mystra's name is mentioned in both books, though she is not listed as a deity, in the Deities section of either book. If your argument were to hold any real weight, you'd be able to show where she's listed in the alphabetical lists of the other deities in either of those books.
If you're going to quote it, so will I:Yes, Mystra's name is mentioned in both books, though she is not listed as a deity, in the Deities section of either book. If your argument were to hold any real weight, you'd be able to show where she's listed
Can you *claim* to worship Mystra? Sure. If your character doesn't have a divine power source, you can claim to worship the jam that grows between your toes at night if you want.
Can you gain Divine powers from Mystra? Nope. 4th edition realms just don't work that way.
However, don't forget, people in the Realms (those that care at all about the pantheon) know that Mystra is dead - and in a world where the gods answer prayers (even if far less directly than they used to) worshipping a dead god(dess) is likely to get you almost as many odd looks as worshipping your toe jam.
It's nearly the same as walking around our world today and telling people you're a devout Zeus worshipper. It's just not practical, and sounds a little crazy.
Can you *claim* to worship Mystra? Sure. If your character doesn't have a divine power source, you can claim to worship the jam that grows between your toes at night if you want.Can you gain Divine powers from Mystra? Nope. 4th edition realms jus
Actually I was just making fun of your narrow reading. Now that we have shown Mystra is not on a "list of deities", how is this an unofficial ruling exactly?
Actually I was just making fun of your narrow reading. Now that we have shown Mystra is not on a "list of deities", how is this an unofficial ruling exactly?
Can you *claim* to worship Mystra? Sure. If your character doesn't have a divine power source, you can claim to worship the jam that grows between your toes at night if you want.
Can you gain Divine powers from Mystra? Nope. 4th edition realms just don't work that way.
Actually, 4th edition FR does work like that. Re-read the posts Keith and I made in this very thread.
Clerics of dead gods do have powers. They've even been in LFR scenarios. That's because Clerics and Paladins get their powers from their rites and ceremonies, unlike Invokers that directly channel their deity's power.
And that's good. It's a great plot device for authors to use. It's the same reasons that fallen paladins and clerics-gone-bad are still a viable threat to adventurers.
The issue is whether a PC can do so though. That's a lot more muddy of an issue. It's also kinda moot, due to roleplaying.
As to whether the average person in Faerun will look at you funny... yeah, a little. No doubt. But keep in mind that Mystra has already died twice beforehand. And in general, it seems popular deities don't stay dead (look at Bane). There's lots of reasons to believe she'll come back. So not that strange, all in all...
Actually, 4th edition FR does work like that. Re-read the posts Keith and I made in this very thread.Clerics of dead gods do have powers. They've even been in LFR scenarios. That's because Clerics and Paladins get their powers from their rites and
No doubt. But keep in mind that Mystra has already died twice beforehand. And in general, it seems popular deities don't stay dead (look at Bane). There's lots of reasons to believe she'll come back. So not that strange, all in all...
Though, she's been dead for 100 or so years now. I'm not sure about the transition from Mystryl (her first incarnation) to Mystra, but in her second reincarnation, she wasn't dead for very long -- both her death, and Midnight's ascension as the new Mystra, happened in the same year, 1358.
Bane was only "dead" for 14 years or so (and, even then, he wasn't dead, he was lurking in his son's body). If Mystra's been dead for a century, maybe this time it'll stick. :D
Though, she's been dead for 100 or so years now. I'm not sure about the transition from Mystryl (her first incarnation) to Mystra, but in her second reincarnation, she wasn't dead for very long -- both her death, and Midnight's ascension as the new
Actually it would seem to be. Under Special Character Creation Rules it says
Select a deity for your character, if applicable. See the Forgotten Realms Campaign Guide or Player’s Guide for a list of deities available in the Realms
Now common sense says this is only for divine characters. But you can argue through RAW that if your character does worship a deity, this paragraph is applicable.
WolfStar76 wrote:
However, don't forget, people in the Realms (those that care at all about the pantheon) know that Mystra is dead - and in a world where the gods answer prayers (even if far less directly than they used to) worshipping a dead god(dess) is likely to get you almost as many odd looks as worshipping your toe jam.
Really? Gods, Mystra in particular, have a habit of returning from the dead. I'd be surprised to see major centres of worship for Mystra, however members of long-lived races worshipping a dead god certainly seems reasonable to me.
WolfStar76 wrote:
It's nearly the same as walking around our world today and telling people you're a devout Zeus worshipper. It's just not practical, and sounds a little crazy.
I personally think Zeus worshippers should be given the same level of respect as christians. Its due to a long and complex history (which I won't even begin to pretend I understand completely) that we don't extend them that courtesy. But all that is irrelevant to a world where gods are provably real to even the worst of skeptics
kenobi65 wrote:
If Mystra's been dead for a century, maybe this time it'll stick. :D
Yeah I don't buy it myself. Mystra has gotten a lot of attention due to her death. I won't be surprised to see the next RSE or the next edition bring Mystra back from the dead. Although I do think the Weave is gone for good. Unless we see a massive turn-around in design philosophy.
Actually it would seem to be. Under Special Character Creation Rules it saysNow common sense says this is only for divine characters. But you can argue through RAW that if your character does worship a deity, this paragraph is applicable.Really? Gods
Ugh, people we were arguing about this when the campaign first started. There are tons of perfectly logical reasons that you should be able to worship whatever god you like living or dead...
Your a member of some obscure sect, your old enough to have been a member when the god was still around, and other such reasons.
Your not going to get any of these people to change their minds about the what it works. It's in the rules, it's idiotic and honestly you should just give up on this campaign and find something better to play, it isn't very hard trust me.
Ugh, people we were arguing about this when the campaign first started. There are tons of perfectly logical reasons that you should be able to worship whatever god you like living or dead...Your a member of some obscure sect, your old enough to have
Just because clerics from dead powers have powers doesn't mean they gain that power from that dead power. That is not how it works in the Realms. Gaining power from a dead god requires specific rites, blood sacrifices, parts of the god's body, stuff like that. In all other cases, other deities step in. Thus is how it has worked in the Realms - a specific setting with it's own rules when it comes to the gods. It's not down in the 4th ed core book, of course, but I think that is mostly because the designers would think that players would apply common sense (apparently they are wrong).
In the Realms, at least, the gods provide the divine power. They do not grant it directly, but they do grant it - the rites that grant the power are just a means to access is. Once granted, it can't be easily revoked (so a cleric/paladin can sway from the path), but of the god dies, it does not longer grant power. Cultists work quite differently than clerics, and can easily be deluded by other powers, or use nefarious means to 'cannibalize' a dead god's power.
At least, that is how I see it. And I have a character that venerates Mystra (she doesn't believe Mystra is listening, but offers to her anyway).
Just because clerics from dead powers have powers doesn't mean they gain that power from that dead power. That is not how it works in the Realms. Gaining power from a dead god requires specific rites, blood sacrifices, parts of the god's body, stuff
Actually, 4th edition FR does work like that. Re-read the posts Keith and I made in this very thread.
Clerics of dead gods do have powers. They've even been in LFR scenarios. That's because Clerics and Paladins get their powers from their rites and ceremonies, unlike Invokers that directly channel their deity's power.
Good luck finding a church of Mystra or some other dead god to perform those rites...
As has been stated, you can claim to worship a dead god for RP purposes... but you cannot mechanically have that god as your patron deity. For example, you can claim to worship Elistraee, but you would have (most likely) Selune or Correllon listed as your deity.
For RP purposes, there's no reason you can't offer up a prayer in different situations to a dead deity.
But keep in mind that Mystra has already died twice beforehand. And in general, it seems popular deities don't stay dead (look at Bane). There's lots of reasons to believe she'll come back. So not that strange, all in all...
Mystra died to explain the changes in how 4e powers work as opposed to previous edition magic. I wouldn't hold your breath on her coming back, which would mean reinstituting the weave and getting rid of the 4e power system.
Corwynn wrote:
Repeating yourself doesn't make it true :P. It's not in the CCG. It's only in an unofficial ruling -- and even then you're still allowed to roleplay it.
No but repeating the truth may get you to finally see it. Others have already quoted the relevant text from the CCG. Show me a list of FR deities that has [insert dead god's name here] on it and I will concede the point that you can list that deity as your patron deity.
Good luck finding a church of Mystra or some other dead god to perform those rites...As has been stated, you can claim to worship a dead god for RP purposes... but you cannot mechanically have that god as your patron deity. For example, you can clai
My next character will be a farmer with a pig under his arm who worships his toe jam.
I'll be sure not to make him a divine-power-source class.
Thanks!
My next character will be a farmer with a pig under his arm who worships his toe jam.I'll be sure not to make him a divine-power-source class.Thanks! ;)
Mystra died to explain the changes in how 4e powers work as opposed to previous edition magic. I wouldn't hold your breath on her coming back, which would mean reinstituting the weave and getting rid of the 4e power system.
I disagree, the 4e expands all campaigns not just the realsm, so i doubt that they used mystras death for ONLY this purpose, and I definately believe if mystra was to come back there would not HAVE to be any rules changes, When Wizards switched from 2nd to 3rd edition they didnt have to kill any gods to explain the reason feats were introduced, so bringing back dead gods wouldnt effect the mechanics of the game only the story of the setting.
Tho i would like to see a god or two come back (or new gods be introduced) over the course of the LFR just because there is all these epic Forgotten realsms books and stories of fallen gods, or wicked events that change fearun however wizards (or tsr even) never let us participate in these events, this is why I so much enjoyed the Tenh modules from Living greyhawk, because i got to see, and participate through my characters eyes the re-founding of a great duchy
Or the Bright sands modules wich took our 1st level characters and made them become "the slayer of Rary the traitor" and new buddy of Tenser himself.
Bringing back a dead god (or introducing a new one) through lfr modules would be an excellent way to give us players the feeling of being apart of Forgotten realsm history like these other modules did with greyhawk.
I disagree, the 4e expands all campaigns not just the realsm, so i doubt that they used mystras death for ONLY this purpose, and I definately believe if mystra was to come back there would not HAVE to be any rules changes, When Wizards switched from
I could see the Restoration of Mystra as an epic level story arc. That would be damn nifty to experience.
But the episodic disjointed nature of LFR adventures might make it difficult to pull off, especially given the narrow level bands and how fast PCs advance.
(Yes, this is me grousing about how 4E advances PCs too quickly for the purpose of storylines in a Living Campaign)
kenobi65 wrote:
Porcus, of course!
Ow. Just ow. Bad Kenobi, bad! No biscuit!
-karma
I could see the Restoration of Mystra as an epic level story arc. That would be damn nifty to experience.But the episodic disjointed nature of LFR adventures might make it difficult to pull off, especially given the narrow level bands and how fast PC
I have two PCs that worship dead gods as RP. Gorm Gulthyn is just money for the East Rift region. And some gods are too cool to really die. Unaligned PCs interested in dead gods have an adventuring company as an option.
I disagree, the 4e expands all campaigns not just the realsm, so i doubt that they used mystras death for ONLY this purpose,
Hmm..l so i guess when the devs said in an interview that to help explain the change of how magic worked between the two editions they killed off Mystra they must have been lying. Those sneaky devs... they'll get you every time!
Hmm..l so i guess when the devs said in an interview that to help explain the change of how magic worked between the two editions they killed off Mystra they must have been lying. Those sneaky devs... they'll get you every time!
Hmm..l so i guess when the devs said in an interview that to help explain the change of how magic worked between the two editions they killed off Mystra they must have been lying. Those sneaky devs... they'll get you every time!
(Stares blankly) umm ummm........ Can I roll bluff? -{gulmp}-
(Stares blankly) umm ummm........ Can I roll bluff? -{gulmp}-
The problem is...not so much about not trusting the Devs. Its the fact that the way magic works has changed everywhere, every friggin plane of existance...even ones that don't interact. And many settings have not had a 'god of magic' die.
It's an excuse...more than likely they only thought of ramifications for FR..and never considered how it affects the other realms.
The problem is...not so much about not trusting the Devs. Its the fact that the way magic works has changed everywhere, every friggin plane of existance...even ones that don't interact. And many settings have not had a 'god of magic' die.It's an ex
Hmm..l so i guess when the devs said in an interview that to help explain the change of how magic worked between the two editions they killed off Mystra they must have been lying. Those sneaky devs... they'll get you every time!
So which god did they kill in Eberron to explain the changes? Which god will they kill come 5e to explain the changes?
While the devs might have felt at the time that killing Mystra was necessary to explain the changes to magic,* it wasn't and it won't be necessary to kill someone else or have another giant RSE come the 5th edition. There probably will be an RSE, but it won't be necessary. It will be because WotC wants one.
* I've heard people make similar claims when making massive changes with other IPs as well. Once again those changes weren't necessary, they were made because the creators/owners wanted the change. I'm inclined to think the same thing about WotC. IMO Mystra didn't die because the magic system changed. She died because WotC wanted to abolish the Weave.
So which god did they kill in Eberron to explain the changes? Which god will they kill come 5e to explain the changes?While the devs might have felt at the time that killing Mystra was necessary to explain the changes to magic,* it wasn't and it won'
We haven't seen Eberron so don't know if they did that. Obviously the Devs in talking of killing Mystra were talking specifically about the FR. Not other settings. They specifically said they didn't want to retcon the setting.
And you are right, a big part of it had to do with the weave. The weave represented the old magic system, the regimented way people learned and controlled magic through 1e, 2e, and 3e.
The way I see it... they could just retcon it and then you have a massive amount of people complaining about the hand waving. You could explain it story-wise by doing something like killing Mystra and unraveling the weave, then you have a lot of people complaining about changing the setting because of all the other changes. They also mentioned that a big problem was that every corner of Faerun had been explored and it was getting harder and harder to find places to put adventures or novels where they had more freedom to stretch creatively. Switching it to a partial "points of light" style campaign (some places are worse off than others, but travel between towns/cities is more dangerous now than it used to be) opens up a lot of possibilities. Sort of a "everythign old is new again" approach.
We haven't seen Eberron so don't know if they did that. Obviously the Devs in talking of killing Mystra were talking specifically about the FR. Not other settings. :rolleyes: They specifically said they didn't want to retcon the setting.And you ar
My understanding is that they ("they" being Brand, I believe) also wanted to reduce the canon bloat that made the setting seem inaccessible to people who weren't already intensely familiar with the Realms. Pressing the "blow up the world" button and moving 100 years forward was a pretty effective way to do that, IMO - you still have the locations the old Realmsies are familiar with, and the new people can walk in on something of equal footing with regards to current events. For example, even as someone new to the Realms, I was teaching long-time Realms players a bit about the setting's changes when I ran them through SPEC1-1; I even did the info dump from the Appendix when people didn't make the checks just to give players an idea of what had happened since they last saw the Zhentarim.
My understanding is that they ("they" being Brand, I believe) also wanted to reduce the canon bloat that made the setting seem inaccessible to people who weren't already intensely familiar with the Realms. Pressing the "blow up the world" button and
They specifically said they didn't want to retcon the setting.
I don't see it as a retcon, just as I don't see the introduction of racial feats (in an earlier edition) suddenly meaning races have new in character abilities they never had before, or action points meaning people can suddenly do more during combat then they could before.
I don't see it as a retcon, just as I don't see the introduction of racial feats (in an earlier edition) suddenly meaning races have new in character abilities they never had before, or action points meaning people can suddenly do more during combat
My next character will be a farmer with a pig under his arm who worships his toe jam.
Other than the toe jam, I actually made that character... course, the pig was his wife who got turned into a pig and he was trying to learn enough magic to turn her back... but that's neither here nor there.
For what it's worth, you can, as far as I can tell, worship a dead god as long as you also worship a god that gives spells.
For example, many followers of Cyric worshipped one of the dead three gods. There's a cult of Helm I think that's given power by Bane now, etc...
Effectively, you have your official by the rules deity and you're 'what I tell people' deity.
Other than the toe jam, I actually made that character... course, the pig was his wife who got turned into a pig and he was trying to learn enough magic to turn her back... but that's neither here nor there.For what it's worth, you can, as far as I c
For what it's worth, you can, as far as I can tell, worship a dead god as long as you also worship a god that gives spells.
For example, many followers of Cyric worshipped one of the dead three gods. There's a cult of Helm I think that's given power by Bane now, etc...
Effectively, you have your official by the rules deity and you're 'what I tell people' deity.
While this is more suitable to the "Can I be a good-aligned worshiper of Bane?" discussion, you should still keep in mind that there are two separate rules governing your PC's relationship to deities.
"Select a deity for your character, if applicable." is ambiguous, as it leaves room to say that this isn't applicable to your PC because he doesn't have a divine power source, and so he has not officially selected a deity.*
"Characters may not worship a deity with an alignment of evil or chaotic evil." is clear and unambiguous. If your PC takes actions which the DM interprets as worshiping an evil deity, it is an illegal PC and should (at the least) be warned, with the DM being within his rights to boot you right from the table.**
This allows you, for example, to say that, despite not having an official selected deity, your PC roleplays that he is a member of a hidden cult that believes that, during the Spellplague, previously-neutral Hoar was split into evil and good aspects. The evil half retained the name and went into the service of Bane, whereas the good half hides in the darkness, regaining his power. Your cult worships the good aspect, whose secret mystical name is 'Batman'.
How to deal with situations which assume the PC will worship an evil deity is left as an exercise for the reader. For example, saying a prayer to and making a small sacrifice to Umberlee is considered normal and unobjectionable in Faerun. Indeed, it would not surprise me to see modules which would penalize a PC for not doing so. However, such actions are clearly acts of worship to an evil deity.
While this is more suitable to the "Can I be a good-aligned worshiper of Bane?" discussion, you should still keep in mind that there are two separate rules governing your PC's relationship to deities."Select a deity for your character, if applicable.
For example, saying a prayer to and making a small sacrifice to Umberlee is considered normal and unobjectionable in Faerun. Indeed, it would not surprise me to see modules which would penalize a PC for not doing so. However, such actions are clearly acts of worship to an evil deity.
I seem to recall a Living City module in which, if the PCs weren't properly respectful to Umberlee during a sea voyage, they received a lovely curse or some such.
I seem to recall a Living City module in which, if the PCs weren't properly respectful to Umberlee during a sea voyage, they received a lovely curse or some such.
I'll admit that the 'cannot worship (an evil deity)' bit might mean that you can't put on a disguise purporting to be a Banite or whatever (display of holy symbol), can't successfully bluff past many evil patrols of organizations that have certain wordings of salute, perform _very_ normal polytheistic practices such as the Umberlee one described, etc.
Most likely 'worship' in that case doesn't mean the general meaning of any type of honor or reverence tended towards a deity, but rather an explicit 'I select this deity as a cleric or paladin and my prayers go to them', though it might also prohibit the concept of a non-evil character (a fighter, say) whose quest is to free Hoar from Bane's influence (an arguably good act).
I'll admit that the 'cannot worship (an evil deity)' bit might mean that you can't put on a disguise purporting to be a Banite or whatever (display of holy symbol), can't successfully bluff past many evil patrols of organizations that have certain wo
I seem to recall a Living City module in which, if the PCs weren't properly respectful to Umberlee during a sea voyage, they received a lovely curse or some such.
Not being respectful isn't the same as worshiping. My Nealander Island Rogue is plenty respectful of Umberlee, but he sure as heck doesn't worship her. Being respectful of super powerful entities with the ability to destroy you is only good sense really.
Not being respectful isn't the same as worshiping. My Nealander Island Rogue is plenty respectful of Umberlee, but he sure as heck doesn't worship her. Being respectful of super powerful entities with the ability to destroy you is only good sense rea
Not being respectful isn't the same as worshiping. My Nealander Island Rogue is plenty respectful of Umberlee, but he sure as heck doesn't worship her. Being respectful of super powerful entities with the ability to destroy you is only good sense really.
Similarly my drow is respectful of all gods (even Lolth) and refuses to partake in any defilement of their temples/shrines/places of worship. He refuses to even be in the same room when its taking place. With Lolth he will actually try to stop players from defiling a shrine of hers.
That isn't from worshipping them though. Its from fear.
Similarly my drow is respectful of all gods (even Lolth) and refuses to partake in any defilement of their temples/shrines/places of worship. He refuses to even be in the same room when its taking place. With Lolth he will actually try to stop player
1 : to honor or reverence as a divine being or supernatural power 2 : to regard with great or extravagant respect, honor, or devotion
Sounds like worship to me.
1 : to honor or reverence as a divine being or supernatural power 2 : to regard with great or extravagant respect, honor, or devotionSounds like worship to me.
You can argue that offering a prayer so she doesn't sink your ship is not 'great or extravagant respect, honor, or devotion', nor does it show 'honor or reverence'. But even if it does, it is not a huge step to deduce that what was intended was the choosing of a patron deity - the one you model your decisions after (as you believe would be best).
Gomez, who repeats his mantra thatw e need a bit more common sense and less poking at grammar
You can argue that offering a prayer so she doesn't sink your ship is not 'great or extravagant respect, honor, or devotion', nor does it show 'honor or reverence'.But even if it does, it is not a huge step to deduce that what was intended was the ch
OK, I think arguments about what is worship are not necessary. While some of us may have been casual about our choice of wording, in the Forgotten Realms divine casters pick a specific deity, which for the history of FR has been referred to as their patron deity, to celebrate, pray to and advocate the worship of to lay worshippers. While 4E backed off of the concept that divine power coming directly from the deity for each and every prayer (for the stated reason by R&D to explain why priests of good gods can go bad without being turned off immediately by the good god), that does not mean the power still does not come from them, just not so responsive to each prayer.
Nothing stops any character from giving a prayer or offering to other deities, and it is common for ordinary folks to do so in relevant situations. PCs in 4E are by definition not ordinary.
Although not discussed much in the new FRCG, in realms lore and cosmology, when you die, your soul goes first to the Shadowfell (where undead are picked off) and then to the Fugue Plane. If you have been a faithful follower of your patron deity, he, she, or it retrieves your soul and takes the souls of its faithful followers to its dominion to live in appropriate style. If not, then bad things happen to you on the Fugue Plane.
I don't know if this will ever come up in LFR, but I suppose it could be relevant in an Epic adventure. It should be relevant though to those players who are interested in roleplaying characters immersed in the setting. Deities in the Realms are fairly active and choice of a patron deity should be focused on the tenets of that faith aligning with the character's beliefs. Those of us who are veterans of LC recall meeting many a deity in the course of adventuring. That will not be as likely in LFR, but I would not rule it out for Epic Tier.
What a Living Campaign always has difficulty is with the situation where a player plays the character at odds with their faith. The designers expect the DM will add appropriate reactions from NPCs (priests, paladins and lay worshippers) to transgressions but "control loop" is hard to sustain in this type of campaign. Mostly that situation is rare though.
Keith
OK, I think arguments about what is worship are not necessary. While some of us may have been casual about our choice of wording, in the Forgotten Realms divine casters pick a specific deity, which for the history of FR has been referred to as their
As has been stated, you can claim to worship a dead god for RP purposes... but you cannot mechanically have that god as your patron deity. For example, you can claim to worship Elistraee, but you would have (most likely) Selune or Correllon listed as your deity.
Glad to see this mentioned somewhere, this is precisely what I did. I didn't know Elistraee was dead at the time though, I just figured I should pick the closest match on the list of available Deities.
Still I don't see why a character can't worship one deity while keeping some of the traditions of another deity. Particularly when those traditions don't clash with one another, or in a case like Elistraee where the followers from one dead deity were directly taken in by other deities. After all how many deities are going to punish their followers for taking part in a harvest festival, besides some sort of god of famine?
Glad to see this mentioned somewhere, this is precisely what I did. I didn't know Elistraee was dead at the time though, I just figured I should pick the closest match on the list of available Deities.Still I don't see why a character can't worship o
Still I don't see why a character can't worship one deity while keeping some of the traditions of another deity. Particularly when those traditions don't clash with one another, or in a case like Elistraee where the followers from one dead deity were directly taken in by other deities. After all how many deities are going to punish their followers for taking part in a harvest festival, besides some sort of god of famine?
I don't think you'd get much of an argument on that. The issue is if you decide to put "Elistraee" on the "Deity" line of your character sheet, particularly if your class uses the Divine power source.
I don't think you'd get much of an argument on that. The issue is if you decide to put "Elistraee" on the "Deity" line of your character sheet, particularly if your class uses the Divine power source.
You have to remember that most people in the realms offer up daily prayers to all sorts of gods. It is a polytheistic pantheon. However, the deity line on your sheet represents the one God who most embodies your beliefs and whom you offer your devotion and dedication to. This is more important for Divine classes (obviosuly) than for "lay" classes. Even a cleric of Amaunator may offer a quick prayer to Tempus before entering battle or Tymora if he needed a bit of luck to get through a situation. However, at the end of the day (and at the beginning especially) he will be devoting his prayer time to Amaunator. When he dies, if he has lived right, he will be taken to Amaunator's realm to serve him.
You have to remember that most people in the realms offer up daily prayers to all sorts of gods. It is a polytheistic pantheon. However, the deity line on your sheet represents the one God who most embodies your beliefs and whom you offer your devo
Hmmm... is a thread like an exarch? Still, you can't put "Thread" in your deity list on your character sheet. Even if it wasn't dead, it isn't an approved FR deity.
(yes... I'm being stupid. )
Hmmm... is a thread like an exarch? Still, you can't put "Thread" in your deity list on your character sheet. Even if it wasn't dead, it isn't an approved FR deity.(yes... I'm being stupid. :))
Hmmm... is a thread like an exarch? Still, you can put "Thread" in your deity list on your character sheet. Even if it wasn't dead, it isn't an approved FR deity.
(yes... I'm being stupid. )
Did you mean you cannot put it in your deity line?
Did you mean you cannot put it in your deity line?
This is back again? More like worshiping a dead thread.
My fault, I assure you. I had recently started playing a drow bard and was wanting to put Elistraee down as my deity, but since I didn't know her 4E whereabouts I ran a search on the forums to see what I could find on her current whereabouts. I was somewhat surprised at what turned up, and am quite dissapointed that one has to read the novels to know whats going on.
My fault, I assure you. I had recently started playing a drow bard and was wanting to put Elistraee down as my deity, but since I didn't know her 4E whereabouts I ran a search on the forums to see what I could find on her current whereabouts. I was s
I will point out that a Star Pact Warlock, is a perfect way to worship a Dead God.... The worship is being "taken" advantage of by one of the Far Realms Entities.
There are also past examples of the worship of a "fallen" god being subverted by another power..
My Main Character is a Former Priest of Mystra who was "stoned" in a previous Living Campaign in the Realms, and was "recovered". When he came "too" and discovered that his divinity was no longer able to hear him, or him hear her, he went looking for answers, and found them, in the void above..
Work within the rules, not around them....
a couple of coppers worth
Greg Ferguson Oviedo, FL
I will point out that a Star Pact Warlock, is a perfect way to worship a Dead God.... The worship is being "taken" advantage of by one of the Far Realms Entities. There are also past examples of the worship of a "fallen" god being subverted by anothe
No. See CCG 1.8 and the FRCG or FRPG referenced by it. BTW, I don't think of the setting as fluff. (Fluff to me is what color is a magic missile.) Worshipping a dead god would have impact on interactions with the setting (the NPCs at least). In a home campaign the DM can change or ignore the setting as he or she might like. Keith
It's unquestionably fluff. Fluff comprises elements of story and concept. Crunch is the mechanic by which those elements find articulation. Granted, each informs the other - which is the point you make. Whether or not it's legal in the RPGA is, of course, another matter entirely. -Unmaker
No, there's Domain Feats
..and yes I know this is an old post, if someone already said this I only read page 1.
It's unquestionably fluff. Fluff comprises elements of story and concept. Crunch is the mechanic by which those elements find articulation. Granted, each informs the other - which is the point you make. Whether or not it's legal in the RPGA is, of co
While we don't necessarily frown on thread necromancy on this board, digging up a 4-page thread that had been dead for a year, only reading the first page of it, and then specifically replying to a post from that first page (and which your post seems to acknowledge may well have already been covered)...I'm not sure what purpose it serves.
While we don't necessarily frown on thread necromancy on this board, digging up a 4-page thread that had been dead for a year, only reading the first page of it, and then specifically replying to a post from that first page (and which your post seems
They specifically said they didn't want to retcon the setting.
