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SYB wrote:

Easily answered.

So says the linguist... :D This is why i never paid attention in English class... it makes my brain hurt. :P

Telvin3d]If I have this right, some people are arguing that the enemy can't stand up because the prone condition has a set end time. They are treating it like the many other powers that give an until-your-next-turn effect.

However, it seems to me that the logical extension of this thinking is that once the effect ends, the enemy should no longer be prone. After all, either the until-the-end-of-your-next-turn is the conclusion of the condition or it is not. If it is not the automatic duration of the condition then there is also no justification to prevent the enemy from standing up sooner.

Do you mean it ends and you are suddenly on your feet as the logical conclusion? See my previous post on that subject as Prone is a special case where the RAW says you have to spend an action to stand up if you are prone.

That pretty much denies any chance of magically appearing on your feet barring some special power. However, that doesn't mean an enforced or conditional duration can't be imposed on the condition (i.e. Knocked prone (save ends), knocked prone until the end of your next turn, etc.) after which you can then spend the action to stand up from prone (following the normal rules of when you can spend said action obviously, i.e. if it's until the end of your turn then they can stand on their next turn by spending a move action, or if it until the end of their turn, then they would have to wait untilt the following turn to be able to spend the a wrote:

Mmmm... cake... You shouldn't say such things to someone on a diet... IT'S NOT NICE!!

Ahem... yes... well... anyway, I don't write the rules. I just follow them. :D The rules for standing up are there in the book and there's no exception rule anywhere so... I don't see it as a cake/possession issue.

I do, and I mentioned that before in one of the earliest posts that started this whole thing. My wizard uses it. I would still use it even if it came to light that it didn't work in the way the card says it does, although I think the power would be weaker for it as a daily power. That's neither here nor there.

EDIT: Oh, and I almost forgot to mention that anyone who knows me or has watched me debate here or on the mailing list knows that I have been vociferous in my arguments for rules items even when I didn't have a bested interest in it. Heck, I have been vocal about supporting the view that Preview classes aren't legal despite the fact that I have a Druid character all ready to go and would love to play him. I'd love for them to be legal, but alas. So while some may say I am arguing it because I have a bested interest in it, I would support this stance even if I didn't have a character that uses it.

As for the issue regarding standing up, this is an exception based rule set, so you're talking about general rules and exceptions though. None of the conditions make any mention of making saves to end them either. Using that rationale doeasn't make for a very strong argument otherwise we can't make saves against anything despite there being a section in the rules dealing with saving throws (on page 279 IIRC) as well as rules on when things allow a saving throw (page 57). Take for example Hurl Through Hell. It needed errata because originally it said: "The target returns to the same square it left, or the nearest unoccupied square, and is prone and stunned." They issued errata to add "(save ends)" after stunned. Otherwise you (or the target) would be stunned forever with no hope of recovering by the RAW. (in this example, the prone condition doesn't matter either way since if you're stunned forever, you can't stand up and the additon of the save ends after stunned means once you recover you can stand)

It is my opinion that, since Prone is a condition that normally can be ended voluntarily by standing up, that people are assuming that it can't have an enforced or conditional duration set on it like any other condition.

The RAW states that you have to spend a move action to stand up from prone. It doesn't matter if you were knocked prone by an opponent or fell prone voluntarily. Can we at least agree on that? This is the general rule. Acrobat Boots give an exception allowing you to stand with a minor action. So the ABs don't disprove anything as they are an exception to the general rule. If you had ABs, at the end of the duration, you would spend a minor action to stand up as opposed to a move action.

That's all in line with the first two of the 3 Simple Rules philosophy of 4e D&D listed on page 11 of the PHB. (Simple Rules, Many Exceptions and Specific Beats General)

It's not though, if it has an enforced/conditional duration. If that was the case the knocked prone (save ends) in Cheetah Rake would be pointless if Stand Up is an exception and they can stand whenever they want without making a save.

If you are prone, you have to use the Stand Up rules to get back to your feet. The Stand Up rules do nothing to negate any form of duration on the condition.

D_karr wrote:

Well, in the case of a power that says that you are "prone until the end of your next turn", the "can't stand up" is almost explicitly stated.

This reminds me of another one - some people think that being immobilized means you can't stand up.