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4 years ago ::
Jan 23, 2009 - 1:46AM
#11
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Date Joined:
Nov 10, 2003
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So I went and bought Veteran's Armor for myself because its such a great item. However they've gone and nerfed it, so am I stuck with this useless armor (because Property: When you spend an action point, you gain a +1 item bonus to all attack rolls and defenses until the end of your next turn. sure aint as useful)?
Or can I pretend I didn't buy it and get the full gold back?
I understand that normally you shouldn't be able to undo a purchase. But if they're going to nerf the item after you've bought it, it only seems fair.
It's not useless. For a level 2 armor, that property is reasonable (remember, it's ALL attack rolls until the end of the next turn - that's at least 3, and possibly many more attack rolls if you have a warlord, someone provokes an OA, etc.). It's easily worth the extra 160gp over normal +1 armor.
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4 years ago ::
Jan 23, 2009 - 5:20AM
#12
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Date Joined:
May 24, 2007
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I think the problem is this.... players bought Veterans Armour because of the daily power, not because of the property... telling them the property is still good/fair/reasonable (even when it is) is no consolation fo rthe loss of the main reason they bought the armour.
Those of us (myself included) can snigger into our sleeves and tell these players "tough luck... you chose it you live with it... but don't worry, the property is still good!", but that is just childish.
We should just let these players get their gold back, I would rather do that than listen to a world of complaints about how hard done by they are.
GP curve (and all that) be damned... it's just a game... the idea is to have fun, all this "just stick them with their bad choice" brings the whole game into disrepute... we're bigger as a community than the petty squabbles over pedantic rules that plagued LG.
Wotc made the error when they let the item through the editing/playtesting process in the first place. Some players noticed this error and capitalised on it.
WotC fixed the problem... now we should move on.
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4 years ago ::
Jan 23, 2009 - 5:50AM
#13
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Date Joined:
Aug 11, 2006
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We should just let these players get their gold back, I would rather do that than listen to a world of complaints about how hard done by they are.
GP curve (and all that) be damned... it's just a game... the idea is to have fun, all this "just stick them with their bad choice" brings the whole game into disrepute... we're bigger as a community than the petty squabbles over pedantic rules that plagued LG.
AMEN Brotha, I agree 100%
tho i suspect that those who have Vet armor will mysteriously lose it for something else regard less of what RPGA rules anyways, since there is no currently way for DM's to check on what slot items you have available yet on your characters before playing a session.
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4 years ago ::
Jan 23, 2009 - 5:59AM
#14
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Date Joined:
Mar 29, 2001
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Actually, the FAIREST thing would be allowing a swap of equivalent level armor.
If you took it and have been using it for 6-7 levels, you got significant mileage out of it, and getting a full slot back after that is a bit much.
-karma
LFR Characters:
Lady Tiana Elinden Kobori Silverwane - Drow Control Wizard
Kro'tak Warscream - Orc Bard
Fulcrum of Gond - Warforged Laser Cleric
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4 years ago ::
Jan 23, 2009 - 6:17AM
#15
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Date Joined:
May 24, 2007
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Actually, the FAIREST thing would be allowing a swap of equivalent level armor.
If you took it and have been using it for 6-7 levels, you got significant mileage out of it, and getting a full slot back after that is a bit much.
-karma
I could go for that too...
However, by "fair" I assume you mean "fair" for those who didn't buy Veteran's Armour... GP curve and all that sort of thing...
That in itself isn't really "fair" in the truest sense, more "justice" for those who feel slighted that a character got to use a "broken" item for so long.
For that reason, we just need to give them their money back.
If a character picked the item for a slot, give them the slot back and take the armour off them or they can lose the slot and sell the armour...
Perhaps this is too simple a solution... but really, some people are taking this whole thing awfully personally.
These cries for "punish the Veteran's Armour wearers... for we were right... it is broken!" really just portrays us a game playing pedants with a retributive streak.
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4 years ago ::
Jan 23, 2009 - 7:16AM
#16
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Date Joined:
Nov 10, 2003
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Sorry, how is it 'fair' exactly that people have been using the armor for several levels then get their slot back to use on something else? One of my characters has a +1 armor he doesn't use anymore. Can I have that slot back too please?
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4 years ago ::
Jan 23, 2009 - 7:17AM
#17
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It has nothing to do with punishment. Let me pose two scenarios:
1. Upon reaching level 3 in an adventure, I find a suit of +2 dwarven armor. I take it as a found item slot and enjoy the use of the item for 5 levels. A couple of months later, upon reaching level 8 in an adventure, I find a suit of +3 dwarven armor. Now, the +2 dwarven armor I chose is more or less useless to me and I have to sell it at 20%. My found item slot has still been consumed.
2. Upon reaching level 3 in an adventure, I find a suit of +2 veteran's armor. I take it as a found item slot and enjoy the use of the item for 5 levels. A couple of months later, upon reaching level 8 in an adventure, I find a suit of +3 dwarven armor. Now, the +2 veteran's armor I chose is more or less useless to me (especially now that it has been updated) and I have to sell it at 20%. However, thanks to this errata and subsequent RPGA ruling*, I can instead return the item and get my found item slot back! Woo-hoo!
At low levels, the loss or gain of this amount of GP is not such a huge** deal (though I would argue that a found item slot is)... however, it would set a dangerous precedent that would be a huge deal if it occurred at epic levels.
* Obviously, no such ruling exists yet - this is in reference to a "what-if" situation.
** I guess "huge deal" is a totally relative term. Obviously, it's just a game, and thus nothing is a "huge deal" when you look at it that way. However, within the game, some might consider it to be... I'm sure you're pickin' up what I'm puttin' down.
Dave Kay
LFR Writing Director Retiree
dkay807 [at] yahoo [dot] com
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4 years ago ::
Jan 23, 2009 - 7:25AM
#18
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Date Joined:
May 19, 2004
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AMEN Brotha, I agree 100%
tho i suspect that those who have Vet armor will mysteriously lose it for something else regard less of what RPGA rules anyways, since there is no currently way for DM's to check on what slot items you have available yet on your characters before playing a session.
And that would be cheating. If I caught someone doing that, I would never let them play at my table again. Not because that cheating is that egregious, but because if they are willing to cheat one way, then I have to assume they are willing to cheat other ways (lie about die rolls, "forget" to mark off encounter/daily powers when used, etc.). I hope that most players will actually have a little integrity and stay within the rules. I know that if I meet Sehmerus from MI, I should carefully audit his character.
-SYB
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4 years ago ::
Jan 23, 2009 - 7:51AM
#19
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Date Joined:
May 11, 2005
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Let's not get personal, shall we?
I personally do not think there will be a ruling (but I can be wrong), and I personally (as someone with a PC who owns Veteran armor) don't think there is a real need to. It's a game and it won't be suddenly ruined if there is no 'money-back' guarantee. Likewise it won't be if there is one.
In either case, no need to get vicious against each other. So please behave.
Gomez
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4 years ago ::
Jan 23, 2009 - 8:13AM
#20
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It has nothing to do with punishment. Let me pose two scenarios:
1. Upon reaching level 3 in an adventure, I find a suit of +2 dwarven armor. I take it as a found item slot and enjoy the use of the item for 5 levels. A couple of months later, upon reaching level 8 in an adventure, I find a suit of +3 dwarven armor. Now, the +2 dwarven armor I chose is more or less useless to me and I have to sell it at 20%. My found item slot has still been consumed.
2. Upon reaching level 3 in an adventure, I find a suit of +2 veteran's armor. I take it as a found item slot and enjoy the use of the item for 5 levels. A couple of months later, upon reaching level 8 in an adventure, I find a suit of +3 dwarven armor. Now, the +2 veteran's armor I chose is more or less useless to me (especially now that it has been updated) and I have to sell it at 20%. However, thanks to this errata and subsequent RPGA ruling*, I can instead return the item and get my found item slot back! Woo-hoo!
At low levels, the loss or gain of this amount of GP is not such a huge** deal (though I would argue that a found item slot is)... however, it would set a dangerous precedent that would be a huge deal if it occurred at epic levels.
* Obviously, no such ruling exists yet - this is in reference to a "what-if" situation.
** I guess "huge deal" is a totally relative term. Obviously, it's just a game, and thus nothing is a "huge deal" when you look at it that way. However, within the game, some might consider it to be... I'm sure you're pickin' up what I'm puttin' down.
The reason its a huge deal is
1) They thought they would enjoy it for 29 or 30 levels, and never sell it.
2) Many got to enjoy it for between 0 and 2 levels which is not worth a found item slot and they wouldnt have taken or even bought it if they knew this.
3) saying its now "fair" has nothing to do with it, If they took the atwill off frost weapons they would be more "Fair" but so what! they wouldnt be the same item.
The reason your putting them behind the gold curve is foolish, they would have not spent the gold/slot on such a crappy armor if they knew better. I feel that players should have the option to chose to keep or return it at full refund (price and slot) with no penalty because if you found an item that gets nerfed horribly its possible you had no idea the nerf was comming (infact I thought it would be a clerification/attunement time or upping it to epic only nothing like this) than you are being penalized for choseing what the best option is for you.
Think about your best item, and take away the reason its the best item you have. What do you have left? a wasted purchase, no matter how you slice it. If you buy a car because its fast has commodties and looks nice, and when you come back the next day you have no commodities, it looks like crap, but still runs you would be sure as hell screaming for your money back. The case here is the same, those not affected dont care and say "Screw them its fair now!" and probably nothing will happen, that will cause alot of players to either stop playing the character with the VA, or mysteriously "Lose" the armor and run into 520 gold if the spent it, or change the found slot if they havent submitted it to Wizards yet.
Simply put the way they deal with this will either drive away alot of players or will leave some upset players that keep playing. The reason this will be is that it sets a precident for next time, they do something (IE errat double weapons or errata blood claw, or errata spitting stance or anything) errating something and not letting people change it WILL drive players away period no exceptions.
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