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4 years ago ::
Jan 27, 2009 - 4:59PM
#91
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For those with Frost weapon you now dont have the at will power.
Do you get a refund if the vet armor people dont get a refund? The answer is no.
For those with blood claw weapons you now deal damage equal to the damage you deal to yourself, or 2 times if your wielding a two hand weapon.
You dont get a refund tough crap.
Orb wizards, penalties to saves no longer stack, tough crap its fair now.
Rain of blows is now 1 basic attack and potentialy two if you meet the rediculous conditions, it sucks now. Tough now its under powered and "In line" with other powers.
Double sword no longer exists, you get no refund you lose your money tough.
Simply put if you did the above each type of player that played those things would be offended and very ****** off. Veterans armor is just the same way, if they say "Tough crap its fair" than you will lose alot of players who dont want to dance around "Well that might get eaten by errata"
Simply put, this is the first case, no matter what ruling they make they will anger a group but, the people who arent affected by this aside from being "Behind the curve" will forget about this compleatly but worry about thier own items, those who lose thier item, if they lose even one more I would bet that those who lost more than one item would have over a 70% quit LFR rate. (hasnt happened yet but im just saying)
This ruleing will be a precident and if thier ruleing is either no ruleing or a bad one, than they will slowly have people seep away from them as people get angry with losing items. While few people essentialy lose thier character over this (my wizard is gone) when they do something like errata double weapons they will lose a HUGE section of players which use them if they dont offer an option to players.
That is my view on it, I am not playing a character which uses them any more as a regular +1 is better, however if they just rule tough luck than I dont know why play in the LFR games as I am willing to bet that they wipe out character options that I have used IE double swords and rain of blows and such. The problem isnt this errata its the errata to come, I still think that fundumental changes to the item should allow for full refunds because the above are good examples of why, essentialy if they make it by how many people are angry at them than LFR will die down quickly.
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4 years ago ::
Jan 27, 2009 - 5:57PM
#92
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Date Joined:
Aug 11, 2006
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This ruleing will be a precident and if thier ruleing is either no ruleing or a bad one, than they will slowly have people seep away from them as people get angry with losing items.
And further note.
everyone is seeing the issue as a specific case for this veterans armor, what they are not seeing is the overall effect in the future, For example.. They are willing to write off the veterans armor now because (as they say) its not that big of a deal, its only in a 1-4 tier. but what they dont see is that IF this errata had gone through later on and if they would have had the +3 armor in a higher tier they would be just as screwed! but maybe not so willing to write it off then. sure the errata is justified but what they decide for this errata will have a huge effect in future errata issues.
tho i dont think people will quit I have a suspicion that alot of players will resort to cheating (as mentioned earlier in this thread) and honestly i wouldnt blame them. but you have to ask yourself if we make these players "tough it out" and they all start to cheat, then what does that tell us about our decision to not let them get a refund (or find a resonable way to compensate for the fundamental change of a weapon)
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4 years ago ::
Jan 27, 2009 - 6:04PM
#93
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Date Joined:
Jul 16, 2002
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The new CCG seems to deal with it to a certain extent:
Rules Updates: Periodically, Wizards of the Coast will release rules updates with corrections to existing rules. These updates are official for RPGA play on the 4th Tuesday of each month, when the online Rules Compendium is updated. The online Rules Compendium is considered an official rules source for RPGA play.[/quote]
IOW, it's still use the most up to date rule. This doesn't mean they won't issue a seperate ruling if deemed necessary on specific things, but for now, the answer seems to be "Just use the most up to date rule, which in the case of Veteran's Armor is the current eratta."
Sorry WOTC, you lost me with Essentials. So where I used to buy every book that came out, now I will be very choosy about what I buy. Can we just get back to real 4e? Check out the 4e Conversion Wiki. 1. Wizards fight dirty. They hit their enemies in the NADs. -- Dragon9 2. A barbarian hits people with his axe. A warlord hits people with his barbarian. 3. Boo-freakin'-hoo, ya light-slingin' finger-wigglers. -- MrCelcius in response to the Cleric's Healer's Lore nerf
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4 years ago ::
Jan 27, 2009 - 6:26PM
#94
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Date Joined:
May 19, 2004
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And further note.
everyone is seeing the issue as a specific case for this veterans armor, what they are not seeing is the overall effect in the future, For example.. They are willing to write off the veterans armor now because (as they say) its not that big of a deal, its only in a 1-4 tier. but what they dont see is that IF this errata had gone through later on and if they would have had the +3 armor in a higher tier they would be just as screwed! but maybe not so willing to write it off then. sure the errata is justified but what they decide for this errata will have a huge effect in future errata issues.
tho i dont think people will quit I have a suspicion that alot of players will resort to cheating (as mentioned earlier in this thread) and honestly i wouldnt blame them. but you have to ask yourself if we make these players "tough it out" and they all start to cheat, then what does that tell us about our decision to not let them get a refund (or find a resonable way to compensate for the fundamental change of a weapon)
If they choose to cheat, the only thing it tells me is that the players were cheaters to begin with and I don't want to sit down at a game with them anyway.
And, I assure you, I am thinking forward. No matter how much they change an item I have, it will still function in some way. Assuming I had +5 Veteran's Armor when this change occurred, I would still have +5 Veteran's Armor. The +5 bonus would still be there. And, some quality (power or property or both) that was Veteran's would still exist. We have already seen an example where an armor ceased to exist completely (+1 Surge Armor). In that case, when the item ceased to exist, the characters got a replacement. In this case (and similar cases), even if the quality is changed, the item will still have the same enhancement bonus and still have some quality (thus be better than just straight +X item).
Beyond enhancement bonus, magic items aren't essential to my characters. They are fun extra toys, that is all. That is the 4e philosophy of magic items and it is a transparent philosophy to anyone who actually pays attention. So, I don't care if they nerf my current toys to mere shells of their former glory. They will still do something and I will not have been "cheated" or "screwed" (how could I be, it is a game that I don't pay a cent to play).
-SYB
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4 years ago ::
Jan 27, 2009 - 9:24PM
#95
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Date Joined:
Aug 11, 2006
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Beyond enhancement bonus, magic items aren't essential to my characters. They are fun extra toys, that is all. That is the 4e philosophy of magic items and it is a transparent philosophy to anyone who actually pays attention. So, I don't care if they nerf my current toys to mere shells of their former glory. They will still do something and I will not have been "cheated" or "screwed" (how could I be, it is a game that I don't pay a cent to play).
Sure you say this now but what if The future errata changes your +5 armor into a +3 armor and you are told to "deal with it" the point is the item changed in its fundemental design, whether its USEABLE is not the point, the point is that its not usable in the same manner it was when the players made the decision to take it as a slot item. slots are too valuable in this LFR set up to not compensate for when there is errata,
Im sure everyone cares about thier items, Items are just as much part of your character as thier stats, Can you imagine Drizzt without his Figurine? or Raistlin without his staff of the magi? these mere items are apart of thier characters. and over time become an extension of them. (how many times have you seen a picture of a drow wielding 2 scimitars and imediately thought of Drizzt?) the difference is these are items long held and treasured where as this veterans armor is a new "catch" and yes its early in the tier so people are expected to outgrow them, but the simple fact is if they nerf and stiff the items when its early in the game like it is, it will mean that they can do so again down the road when your character has developed and invested more into what he/she has become, and when that gets nerfed (with no compensation) its a different ballgame.
Im trying to prevent the Veterans armor issue now so that we dont have a "staff of the magi" situation later, because I GUARANTEE you that if they nerf a high level item that many people quest for after its atained, players will go nuts. Especially if there is no compensation.
just because you dont pay anything to play doesnt mean you dont have anything invested in your characters, if RPGA pulls this sorta thing on player after you spent years of playtime to tweak out your character youll be singing a different tune.
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4 years ago ::
Jan 27, 2009 - 9:53PM
#96
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Date Joined:
May 29, 2004
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Sure you say this now but what if The future errata changes your +5 armor into a +3 armor and you are told to "deal with it"
All right, we've gone into the not-so-forgotten realm of "completely absurd" here. This is a slippery slope fallacy of the worst order. If you're going to protest, at least make a coherent argument rather than just throwing out wild hypothetical situations that are highly unlikely to become reality. The latter simply doesn't add anything to the discussion, and makes what might otherwise be a well-thought post appear to be an irrational rant.
John du Bois
Living Forgotten Realms Writing Director, Netheril story area
Follow me on The Twitter: @JohnduBois
Follow my presence on The Intertubes: johncdubois.wordpress.com
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4 years ago ::
Jan 28, 2009 - 12:23AM
#97
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Date Joined:
May 11, 2005
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Indeed, this thread seems to drift into 'lets blame the RPGA for everything when I don't immediately get what I want'.
Despite what some people seem to think, players will not quit en mass when a rules update changes some item and they don't get a refund. Those who do seem, to me, to have lost perspective on what this is : a game.
While I can't look in the minds of the RPGA bosses (who may not have full control on what they can rule anyway), I suspect that the main reason to not issue a ruling (at least now), is simplicity. One goal with the new campaign(s) was to keep the rules as simple as possible. 'Use the last rules' is as simple as it gets, even though sometimes it means dissapointing a few (but not most) people. Making overal complex rules for dealing with errata probably isn't worthwhile at this point (though we saw that if items become actually unusable - such as surge armor - exceptional rules do get posted).
Right now, it seems there will be no ruling (or CCG 1.8 would have dealt with it), and there are two ways to deal with this:
A - Pity, but it's a game,
OR
B - Waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaahhhhhhhhhhh! They are meany heads! (insert tantrum of your choice)
I personally like a tantrum now and then, but I think it better to opt for option A in this case.
Good gaming.
Pierre 'Gomez' van Rooden,
LFR Dalelands Writing Director
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4 years ago ::
Jan 28, 2009 - 12:24AM
#98
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And further note.
everyone is seeing the issue as a specific case for this veterans armor, what they are not seeing is the overall effect in the future,
We do see the overall effect for the future, that's why we don't think that a dozend of specific rulings would do the campaign any good.
if they would have had the +3 armor in a higher tier they would be just as screwed!
No, they wouldn't. At worst they would have plain +3 armor without anything special -> perfectly viable.
I have plain +2 armor, a plain +2 neckslot and yet to get a magical weapon (which cause me the regret not taking the plain +2 weapon when I had the chance) and I am perfectly fine without any properties or powers on my items.
I am even still likely to upgrade the armor to +2 veterans armor (as it's the cheapest upgrade avaible) and I will not buy an entirely new armor and rather keep my current one until I the day when I take a +4 armor for annother found item slot.
tho i dont think people will quit I have a suspicion that alot of players will resort to cheating (as mentioned earlier in this thread) and honestly i wouldnt blame them. but you have to ask yourself if we make these players "tough it out" and they all start to cheat, then what does that tell us about our decision to not let them get a refund (or find a resonable way to compensate for the fundamental change of a weapon)
If they all start to cheat, what does that tell us about the players? Maybe the remaining community would be richer if we lost them?
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4 years ago ::
Jan 28, 2009 - 1:10AM
#99
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Date Joined:
Mar 26, 2008
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Ignore this post.
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4 years ago ::
Jan 28, 2009 - 5:05AM
#100
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Date Joined:
May 24, 2007
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I see we have another problem...
Warforged can no longer use components and embedded items (as per the latest update).
Does that mean a Warforged character with an Armbow or a Warsoul Weapon now has a useless item?
Both these items must be component items.
Do they get a refund?
Or do they carry around their expensive junk?
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