|
4 years ago ::
Jan 13, 2009 - 8:50AM
#71
|
Date Joined:
Jul 16, 2002
|
Where would one go to suggest that WotC put the 1-2 page entries for all the LFR (mod) regions from the FRPG and/or FRCG on the RPGA site for download?
Well, you pretty much hit the nail on the head in next paragraph. They want you to buy the book. (FRCG) So putting the stuff on their website for free would be counterproductive in their eyes. 
Sorry WOTC, you lost me with Essentials. So where I used to buy every book that came out, now I will be very choosy about what I buy. Can we just get back to real 4e? Check out the 4e Conversion Wiki. 1. Wizards fight dirty. They hit their enemies in the NADs. -- Dragon9 2. A barbarian hits people with his axe. A warlord hits people with his barbarian. 3. Boo-freakin'-hoo, ya light-slingin' finger-wigglers. -- MrCelcius in response to the Cleric's Healer's Lore nerf
|
|
|
|
4 years ago ::
Jan 13, 2009 - 10:02AM
#72
|
Date Joined:
Aug 22, 2007
|
Do people who complain about plot hooks, realize how hard it is to create one that: (a) works for the majority of PCs without becoming stale (which also means that we should never assume a PC played specific previous adventures), (b) doesn't take up too much time (after all, an adventure must be able to be finished in 4 hours) and (c) doesn't fill up a lot of pages?
Sure. After one too many frustrating experiences in another campaign, I would occasionally start off with a warning when running for complete strangers, "Here's the blurb. If this doesn't sound like something your character would be interested in, you should pick another PC. It is your job as a player to figure out why your PC wants to play this module, not my job to talk you into playing the module. Talk to me if you have ideas about how to modify the hook to catch your PC."
But consider the flip-side. Not everyone wants to play the altruistic moron who bites on every hook that wanders by or the greedy mercenary that jumps at every offered job.
Unfortunately, most motivations beyond those two require some degree of immersion and ability for a PC to be involved in the campaign. It's very difficult for me to come up with any rational explanation as to why my PC travels hundreds of miles in order to wander into a tavern to get a job from a farmer paying 25 gp.
This, however, is not something that should have come as a surprise to campaign staff. Choosing the current setup over all other alternatives--fewer regions, regions being cities in a geographical area or factions, assigning four regions to each level band for a year (rotating from year to year)--was designed to give us what it has produced.
I consider the campaign to have failed on a basic level in not considering this issue and taking it into account. If you're going to create a shallow campaign with twelve regions spread across a continent, where it is expected that a PC will spend eight to ten modules careening wildly across Faerun between missions in his home region, it's pretty obvious that there's going to be some difficulty with motivations.
Do I realize how difficult it is to create a good plot hook? Sure. Do you realize how difficult it is to come up with a rational explanation as to why my Waterdhavian PC just travelled from Cormyr to Aglarond in order to wander into a tavern and help out a random farmer?
I consider this a failure on the part of the campaign because, not only was this seemingly not anticipated, the tools that other campaigns have used in the past were deliberately left out: organizations. Other campaigns have used metaorganizations and factions as ways to motivate PCs, or in the simplest case, simply declared that all PCs are members of one big organization.
Yes, the better option would have been to have official campaign metaorganizations to allow for variety of choice, but since that was evidently not going to happen, how difficult would it have been to just weave something into the campaign background, something like "All PCs are members of a secretive organization. You will be asked to journey all throughout Faerun, performing missions to benefit the organization and to help them gain friends, allies and people owing them favors. Members of this organization comes from a variety of races, so you will have to grow accustomed to working with races that might otherwise have enmity with yours."
Let's take the following hook, written by global campaign staff:
Radiant Vessel of Thesk
Show
Player’s Introduction
This introduction can take place in any location the DM sees fit, based on the backgrounds of the PCs. The closer the adventure starts to Thesk, the better; however, it should not start in Thesk. Read or paraphrase the following to the players:
When your contact told you about Jonster Yate, he did mention the halfling was a little eccentric. Your contact may have understated things a bit.
The halfling sits, legs folded, on a raft—although there is no water within several miles.
“The flood is coming,” says the halfling as an introduction. “The signs are all there, and I am prepared. However, I have learned of a radiant vessel in the land of Thesk. It is said to not only float, but also to have healing powers. And smite your enemies. And mend pottery. I want you to go to Thesk and get it for me.” Jonster looks up from his seat on the raft expectantly. No, that's not Encounter 2, that's the very start of the module. This isn't a hook. It's an interesting visual that the author thought sounded cool, but it starts from Sentence #1 with the assumption that the PC's are apparently seeking out this person for reasons unknown and have some unknown contact who has sent them to him. I don't know what reaction the author was going for, but I'm guessing that the uniform "WTF?!" seen at our table wasn't it. Starting in media res can be interesting as a change of pace, but the current trend toward dispensing with the need for player motivation leads to players treating this as merely a light "beer and pretzels" game, which I don't consider a good thing for the campaign. -- Brian Gibbons.
|
|
|
|
4 years ago ::
Jan 13, 2009 - 11:33AM
#73
|
Date Joined:
Aug 20, 2007
|
leads to players treating this as merely a light "beer and pretzels" game
Why do you hate Homer Simpson? 
|
|
|
|
4 years ago ::
Jan 13, 2009 - 1:28PM
#74
|
|
|
...
I consider the campaign to have failed on a basic level in not considering this issue and taking it into account.
....
Starting in media res can be interesting as a change of pace, but the current trend toward dispensing with the need for player motivation leads to players treating this as merely a light "beer and pretzels" game, which I don't consider a good thing for the campaign.
-- Brian Gibbons.
A lot of people around here would disagree with your assessment. We'll probably be running 6 (or more) tables at our local game day for Spec 1-1 in a couple of weeks. There have been and always will be compromises to running a living campaign. Considering how young the campaign is, I think the admins and authors are doing a good job. Or maybe beer and pretzels are a popular choice.
Personally, I'm thankful that LFR has taken a different direction than LG or LC. Living City was fun, but how many adventures can you have in one city? I did feel more connected to a region in LG, but I love the open acceptance of D&D rules and freedom to play any mod released in LFR. Even with regions in LG my character still wandered the known world between regional and core mods. In addition, there were massive changes to the structure, tracking and rules between LG and LFR. In hindsight they might have done some things differently. Whether it would it have been better or worse is unknowable.
As the campaign matures, I expect the regions to develop more "flavor". As far as your PC travelling the world, who's to say how long passes between one adventure and the next? I've always assumed my PC's life would be something like the military - months of boredome interspersed with moments of insanity. If it's important to you, there are any number of justifications for a travelling PC. They work as a guard on the trade routes but don't make any real money at it. Adventures occur while he's looking for a "real" job.
I do like the idea of meta-orgs being a motivation for some of my characters, but it's not necessary. For some people belonging to organization X which hands them assignments would be a cool RP hook. For many
It sounds like what you want is more story-driven campaign like Xendrick Expeditions. I'm sure they are coming. In the meantime, if you don't like a hook use DME to tweak it to fit your group. If you don't know enough about your group to modify the hook imagine how hard it would be for someone writing for the multitudes.
Allen.
|
|
|
|
4 years ago ::
Jan 13, 2009 - 3:18PM
#75
|
|
|
As the campaign matures, I expect the regions to develop more "flavor".
You're expecting, that say in a year, that you will see players get involved with over a dozen regions simultaneously? How many players in the campaign could even name all the regions and a single fact about them based solely upon LFR play?
And you think that they will find this involvement by playing as many as 3 or 4 modules in that region while playing 30+ other modules? And that's assuming we're talking just one character here.
I just don't find it likely.
The campaign can't support as many regions as it has with as few modules as it's allowed to produce. One or the other really needs to change.
Even if you desired to 'cycle' through regions rather than try to deliver all at once it would be far better. You have a mandated finite set of resources. Don't make everyone starve to death equally.
It would be far better to see say 4 regions with 3-4 coordinated modules a tier. So that characters could focus upon those areas and learn them. Then when 'new' 1-4s came out they could be from a 'new' region and start a new 'regional' thread.
As it is there's no reason to have so many in-character regions. Is there? Over the next 3 years you're looking to have what 12 modules from each region right? How many of those are going to be playable by the same character even? Wouldn't it be better and easier to focus story arcs?
Have a Waterdeep arc that spans a year, giving out 3 modules a quarter and each progressing from one tier to the next. So that a character could conceivably play that entire story arc and get involved with Waterdeep?
-James
|
|
|
|
4 years ago ::
Jan 13, 2009 - 11:21PM
#76
|
Date Joined:
Dec 16, 2005
|
Given what I have seen so far, I don't expect that there will be significant player or character buy-in to regional plotlines at any point in the campaign.
The reason: any interesting plotline is going to get buried in the rubble of the dozen different adventures that any given character will have played for any one adventure in a given region or setting.
Even by this time next year, we will be looking at a probable maximum of 2 adventures per moduler tier per region. That's a big improvement on what we have now, but characters will still have played 3-4 times as many modules from other regions as they have from the region they are focusing on--and many modules are not clearly tied together, so you're probably looking at more like four or five (at most) mods sharing common themes or plot elements that your character will play over the course of ten levels. (25+mods, in most cases). That's, at best, comparable to a short LG story arc--the Brendigund saga, for instance. It will not compare to the regional buy-in where you could easily end up with half of your character's play containing the various regional elements and, in two years 16-32 mods (32 if you include meta-regionals) which would develop and flesh out the setting and regional elements.
|
|
|
|
4 years ago ::
Jan 14, 2009 - 2:49AM
#77
|
|
|
It will not compare to the regional buy-in where you could easily end up with half of your character's play containing the various regional elements and, in two years 16-32 mods (32 if you include meta-regionals) which would develop and flesh out the setting and regional elements.
Only when you travelled a lot and lived in a highly active region.
I just paged through my LG ARs, and funily enough my character tended to jump all across the world as well in just as short a time as happens in LFR at the moment. I rarely thought of a reason for these trips either, except for the fact that my PC was an adventurer who had trouble settling down. In a couple of cases there was a short story arc of 3 or so adventures, but that did not happen all too often.
Even in LG getting immersed into a region and its storyline required work, work that in my area only a few were willing to put in it. In fact, some adventures were impossible to understand unless you did immerse yourself in a region with storylines going back years, which chased away just as many new players as it kept in old. There are downsides to such deep immersion type of campaigns, especially for a living campaign.
As for plothooks, I am currently preparing MOON1-1. No spoilers, the PCs know the following within seconds of sitting at the table. I have written down a list of questions to ask my players (basically home region, religion and their reason for being an adventurer). I can come up with dozens of reasons for the PCs to be in that village based on the PCs' interests and previous adventures. Worship Oghma or Millil? A cleric asked you to help a fellow bard in trouble. Have a favor with the noblefamily from WATE1-1? They heard that one of their sponsored bards could use some help. Just played CORE1-3? You are on your way home, potentially drifted of corse due to a storm. A merchant from Waterdeep? Take a look at Moonshae for trade opportunities for the guild and while you are there, pay attention to Amn spies. It would be bad for bussiness if Amn takes over the Isles. A brave warrior who is looking for glory? The Moonshae is troubled by formorians and pirates and always looking for brave warriors and perhaps the Northmen can teach you something about fighting as well.
Sure, if you play your dwarven cleric from Aglarond I might have difficulties for a decent tie in, but if that is really important, then why are you playing him in the first place? Let that dwarf stick to the Sea of Fallen Stars and make a second PC for the Sword Coast.
Pieter Sleijpen,
who has recently given plothooks a bit of thought and who is contemplating changing the Players Introduction section somewhat to make it clearer DMs really should adapt plot-hooks.
|
|
|
|
4 years ago ::
Jan 14, 2009 - 5:28AM
#78
|
Date Joined:
Aug 19, 2007
|
It will not compare to the regional buy-in where you could easily end up with half of your character's play containing the various regional elements and, in two years 16-32 mods (32 if you include meta-regionals) which would develop and flesh out the setting and regional elements.
Remember, everything is someone's bug and someone else's feature.
The major reason people did that was because they didn't have the choice of playing all mods from all regions. It was great if you were from a region that knew what it was doing. Not so great if your region sucked.
There is nothing stopping anyone from choosing to not play the first couple of years of LFR, wait until they have a lot of regional mods available, then mapping out the best way to have one character play all the mods of a particular region(s)
As an example, let's say I have an 'urban' character who plays all mods set in a big city area. So he plays Baldur's Gate and Waterdeep.
With 4 mods a year, 2 years from now, I'll have the option of playing 24 mods over a short time period. I can get really immersed. I could even choose to make a new character to replay a good half of the mods if I want so I don't have to wait.
That means that 40% of this character's non-Epic mods would likely be set in a city. That's not a bad ratio compared to LG...or pick two regions that are next to each other, with one being the 'region' and the other being the 'metaregion'
|
|
|
|
4 years ago ::
Jan 14, 2009 - 6:08AM
#79
|
Date Joined:
Aug 10, 2007
|
Another suggestion . . . play the Loudwater region! For a group that wants to travel in the same region for a while, start with Ogre of the Barrow King, go to the Icy Spire, and explore Spellguard! That's 5+ levels of adventuring all in the same region. I'm very glad that the campaign staff is working on adaptables to broaden the play-style-choices for LFR. My group plays the wandering-pickup-region game weekly with different players each week, but our regular meeting group has been enjoying the Loudwater area story line for several weeks, and looking forward to several more!
Dan Anderson
@EpicUthrac
Living Forgotten Realms Calimshan Writing Director
Living Forgotten Realms Epic Writing Director
Meet me at TotalConfusion:
http://www.totalcon.com/RolePlaying.html
|
|
|
|
4 years ago ::
Jan 14, 2009 - 11:12AM
#80
|
- Dragon Slayer
- If only he would apply himself
- Dammit Jim, this is Star Trek, not D&D!
Date Joined:
Jan 31, 2006
|
any interesting plotline is going to get buried in the rubble of the dozen different adventures that any given character will have played for any one adventure in a given region or setting
Agreed. I would love to see fewer regions and more mods per region. We shall see!
Follow my blog and Twitter feed with Dark Sun campaign design and DM tips! Dark Sun's Ashes of Athas Campaign is now available for home play (PM me with your e-mail to order the campaign adventures).
|
|
|
