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4 years ago ::
Jan 16, 2009 - 8:47PM
#101
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Date Joined:
Jul 16, 2002
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I'm certainly not telling you to "shut up." I am, however, tryign to point out the reality of the situation to you. In LG things changed several times over the life of the campaign. However, they changed one of two ways: 1) The admins witnessed a host of unintended consequences (a la Magic Mart), or 2) there was a large segment of the LG population that were logging complaints about something. The secodn reality of the situation is: they are unlikely to change somethign until they have a empirical evidence of a situation to base the change off of. Take for example the endless debates that happened before the campaign started over the Found Item rules. People were convinced that thsi was going to overpower the game despite there being no evidence that it would. So far, the magic item situation isn't out of hand, so there's no need to change anything about it so far (the access slots went away and that seemed to be because so many people were confused over it). Now as for one's satisfaction with the campaign, that's more difficult to have hard evidence for except through play numbers or a large number of people logging complaints over it. A small number of vocal people wailing and gnashing their teeth are unlikely to effect change in the campaign. As for Dave Christ beign surly... well, yeah... he's Dave.  He was the head of my region in LG, so I have seen more than my fair share of his posts. He and many other admins are usually more than happy to listen to concerns about the campaign. A lot of it depends on the complainers attitude. If they make a calm rational statement about their concerns they are very cordial. Someone who throws a temper tantrum or the typical internet rant, then they get surly and tell people to STFU. When people come forth with statements that amount to: "You guys are teh sUxX0Rz! Improve the campaign now!" I don't blame them for being surly.
Sorry WOTC, you lost me with Essentials. So where I used to buy every book that came out, now I will be very choosy about what I buy. Can we just get back to real 4e? Check out the 4e Conversion Wiki. 1. Wizards fight dirty. They hit their enemies in the NADs. -- Dragon9 2. A barbarian hits people with his axe. A warlord hits people with his barbarian. 3. Boo-freakin'-hoo, ya light-slingin' finger-wigglers. -- MrCelcius in response to the Cleric's Healer's Lore nerf
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4 years ago ::
Jan 16, 2009 - 9:52PM
#102
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Take for example the endless debates that happened before the campaign started over the Found Item rules. People were convinced that thsi was going to overpower the game despite there being no evidence that it would. So far, the magic item situation isn't out of hand, so there's no need to change anything about it so far
As one of the people that thought (and still think) that the found item rules are bad, I will say and said then that the evident problems with them will be seen at the Paragon tier of play, not before.
You can, however, see that the stove and burners are on before putting your hand on them. Your millage may vary.
-James
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4 years ago ::
Jan 16, 2009 - 11:02PM
#103
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When I play I feel like a leaf in a whirlpool. I'm just along for the ride. I have no stake in the situations I find myself in, and really have no empathy or concern for most of the NPCs
Exactly. My character has travelled half way across the world to fight goblins. What did we kill all the local goblins, did we run out of monsters to kill in my home region?
I have to struggle to come up with reasons my characters should give a damn about the people and places they encounter, and that's even on the altruistic goody-two-shoes characters
Their are only so many times we can pull the "Right place, wrong time card." Then it ends up the 4E equivilant of starting your campaign in a tavern with the mysterious mage sitting in a dark corner who gives you a plot hook.
Add in Plot Hooks that hit the Player Characters directly. For instance make the adventure about a kidnapped associate or a friend of a friend rather then just having the players walk into a situation and say "well, i'm here & i have this sword. I suppose i could kill your monsters."
Its more dynamic. Its not a case of changing the rules, or the system its about changing the dynamic of the writing. It has to be about the heroes, not the NPC's.
-M
The difference between stupidity and genius is that genius has its limits.
-Albert Einstein
When the forces of stupid collide, magical things happen. And by magical, I mean ******* moronic.
- Anon
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4 years ago ::
Jan 17, 2009 - 5:58AM
#104
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Date Joined:
Jun 18, 2003
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The LFR staff welcomes feedback. We listen to feedback. We don't always respond to feedback directly, because then we would be spending the hours that we need to be working on adventures instead debating every point in that honored Internet fashion.
Every time the Global Administrators meet with Chris Tulach (a couple times a month), we discuss a variety of topics. Chris is the interface between the LFR staff and WotC. Through our discussions, WotC is made aware of the issues that we feel are important, and that the players feel are important.
The LFR staff is aware that certain players want the campaign to be less episodic and more like LG was in the sense that you could pretty much play your PC's entire career in one or two regions, with all that doing so entails. We are aware that there are ways we can make that happen. However, because of the structure and style of the campaign envisioned and implemented by WotC, there is going to be a limit to this. This will not be LG. Go back and listen to the D&D Podcast where Chris Tulach talked about LFR. He stated right up front that LFR was going to be much more episodic than not.
So no one is telling anyone to shut up. (Well, maybe Dave is. I wouldn't want to get into a surliness contest with Dave.) However, we are trying to be up-front with people about what LFR--at least for now--is, so that they can make informed decisions about their participation in the campaign. Naturally we want people to play LFR and have fun. When we see complaints from a few people that make it sound like LFR is causing them severe pain and distress, but we know sometimes the things that are causing the pain are not likely to change in the near future, the natural reaction on our part is to say, "If what we are doing is hurting you, but we cannot change what we are doing, please stop allowing us to hurt you." This is not the same as telling someone to shut up or even to quit the campaign. It is trying to provide information and suggest reasonable alternatives.
Complaints about the desires of certain players have been registered and understood, and such feedback is appreciated. The repetition of those complaints by the same person do not, unfortunately, add to the worth of the argument. Instead, that repetition weakens the argument and makes future feedback and good discussion harder to find in this medium. The good feedback and suggested solutions on this and other threads are appreciated by the LFR staff. We will continue to do our best to advocate for the players--ALL the players--to make the campaign tenable while still meeting the goals and mandates for the campaign provided by WotC.
Thanks,
Shawn
LFR Global Admin
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4 years ago ::
Jan 17, 2009 - 6:11AM
#105
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Date Joined:
Aug 21, 2007
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Plot hooks have always been a problem for Living Campaigns (any large shared-world campaign). Players desire as a general rule to have unique PCs, not cookie cutter made, and authors are challenged to find one or two plot hooks that work for everyone. The two most generic types are 1) you are an altruistic hero who like doing good deeds for total strangers, or 2) "show me the money," and you see appeals to those personality types in most LFR adventures. Being so fine tuned, as your friend or family member is in trouble, while quite feasible in a home campaign, becomes infeasible in a Living Campaign. We might assume that many PCs would become friends with the cute bartender in the tavern where you always start the adventure, but it is just an assumption and questionable I think.
Once you have 2-3 adventures in a region, then many of the story awards become potential plot hooks. Someone you helped before is back and needs more help. We are building a relationship. Again, there is a problem with that in a Living Campaign, that we cannot publish an adventure which requires each PC, or even any PC at the table, to have a specific story award in order to make sense. There have to be variant reasons or hooks for the total stranger to walk into the adventure. We want to be inclusive, not exclusive. (The exception to that is the Quest Adventure, and witness the complaints about the need for the card and task accomplishments which are exclusive plot hooks for why those PCs will go on the adventure.)
Keith
Keith Hoffman
LFR Writing Director for Waterdeep
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4 years ago ::
Jan 17, 2009 - 9:29AM
#106
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I would like to give a big "here here" to Shawn (our LFR Global Administrator) & Keith (not so secret "Lord of Waterdeep") who has the hard job of putting up with us lot.  It is good to hear that our problems with the current LFR (which is a work in progress) are being heard & to some degree acted on. Having reviewed a lot of what is being said the crux of the arguments all over the LFR boards seem to be - Not enough connection to local events, adventures & commuities - Poor (& in some case no) "Plot Hooks" - No motivation for PC beyond being uber-altruistic or money hungry (which doesn't work satistical in Living) - Less "Fetch" & "Kill-All." More variety in the adventures - More variety in types of Adventures (by the way loved "weekend in the realms" for its interesting premise). - More interesting Villains (not Stats, but background stuff like methodology and appearance). - Maps not made up of Dungeon Tiles (personal irrational pet peeve, but not to worry, i'm basically over it) - More chance for the players to play "Heroes" rather then "dogs bodies" like in some modules. (you know the one i'm talking about if you've read any of my previous posts.) I think this pretty much covers it. Now the first part of fixing a problem is identifying the problem (or at least thats what my mother used to tell me). Maybe if collectively we put out heads together to find solutions for these "problems," we may be able to come up with possible solutions. maybe something that could be incorprated into the modules or by DM's at their table on a case by case basis. So who wants to go first. Feel free to tackle any of the problems on the list, but lets not state anymore huh?  -M (Wow that ended up longer then i expected)
The difference between stupidity and genius is that genius has its limits.
-Albert Einstein
When the forces of stupid collide, magical things happen. And by magical, I mean ******* moronic.
- Anon
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4 years ago ::
Jan 17, 2009 - 10:06AM
#107
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Date Joined:
Dec 12, 2005
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I would agree with moving away from the dungeon tile system. It seriously limits creativity by the module authors and there are no good tools for making maps with dungeon tiles. The only program currently available is very buggy and difficult to work with. I believe it's just as easy for a DM to mix and match dungeon tiles to closely match a module's map or simply draw it up on a battle map.
My LFR Modules: Spoiler:
Show
EAST1-3 Unbidden (H3)
EAST2-3 Nightmares (P1)
NETH3-1 Secrets and Shadows (Paragon Tier) (Author)
ELTU3-6 True Blue (Heroic Tier) (Author)
EPIC3-3 The Tangled Skein of Destiny (Co-Author)
ABER4-3 A Little Rebellion (Paragon Tier) (Author)
WATE4-1 Paying the Piper (Heroic Tier) (Co-Author)
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4 years ago ::
Jan 17, 2009 - 10:20AM
#108
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Date Joined:
Dec 16, 2005
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I will third this comment. There are a variety of situations that are difficult if not impossible to draw with dungeon tiles (and IME, the more tiles you have to pile on top of each other, the more fiddly and time consuming the actual use of dungeon tiles becomes). The requirement to use dungeon tiles was the straw that broke the camel's back when it came to me submitting modules to the campaign. Upgrade my MS Word to 2007? I don't want to but I could find a way to use a copy. (Major disincentive, but not necessarily a deal breaker). Use dungeon tile for all combats? Forget it. (I thought about writing and asking for permission to instead use the poster maps that came in the Fantastic Locations series and more recently on the backs of the D&D Minis posters, but they didn't match up to the stories I had in mind).
I would agree with moving away from the dungeon tile system. It seriously limits creativity by the module authors and there are no good tools for making maps with dungeon tiles. The only program currently available is very buggy and difficult to work with. I believe it's just as easy for a DM to mix and match dungeon tiles to closely match a module's map or simply draw it up on a battle map.
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4 years ago ::
Jan 17, 2009 - 1:18PM
#109
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Once you have 2-3 adventures in a region, then many of the story awards become potential plot hooks.
Keith
But, by the time you've played 2-3 adventures in a region you are going to be Paragon level for that character.
Am I wrong in what I heard that regional mods aren't going to offer many paragon level mods (if any)?
Even if they do, you're not going to have as many as 4 mods a year in that region, as you are going to level out of *the* mod for the region in any given quarter.
Structured more in threads by story would be far more engaging. And by this I don't mean series, but just 'loose' sequels and related modules. As you were saying above, things that might tie in story awards, showcase familiar faces, and the like. Having 2-3 mods that you could play in a row for a given 'region' would allow a player to invest a character in that region.
It would go a long way,
James
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4 years ago ::
Jan 17, 2009 - 1:49PM
#110
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Date Joined:
Apr 30, 2007
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Now I get that there is a licensing argument: that wizards wants to buy and own all the LFR adventures. But I mean, wouldn't all these problems go away if they just had volunteers write the adventures? I mean, commissioning one person to write one adventure every six months really isn't cutting it. Why not commission one person to edit 10 adventures every six months and just have volunteers do the writing, it was better that way!
I'm sure at least half the people on this forum would gladly write adventures for nothing more than the pleasure of having other gamers play them. big deal If I have to sign my adventure away when I send it to wizards, I'm cool with that.
I say that wizards should post an adventure template and let the crazed fans start writing! Maybe hand out a prize to the best adventure every year?
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