I think the biggest reason players and DMs don't like skill challenges is because the DM is treating it as a scripted, unalive, no options but what it is written, challenge. Also some players treat it as something they are more likely to fail at, and missing the rolls are more drastic to them.
I've DMed WATE 1-1 several times and the first half to 2/3rds of the session is one massive skill challenge. Every time though it has been extremely fun, lots of laughter, and not seeming contrived or limited. All of the skill rolls fall in the normal roll playing of the players asking questions and participating in various activity's self evident in the area, as a DM I rarely say no to what they want to do or try, so if their skill isn't on the list, but they role play it out I'll still have them roll the appropriate skill for the consequence and I use the DM golden rule and give them a circumstantial bonus on a future roll or more depending on what they do (+/-2). I only tell them at the very start they are going to be in a skill challenge, and if their character try to do something the success or failure will count so make sure your character does it well.. or maybe things wont turn out all roses. Often,a player will want to role play their character in a way they aren't good at, but that is where the fun comes into play... the failures spur other role playing opportunities and laughter around the table.. and the option to do something they aren't good at alows them to develop the personality of their character.. so what, some really uncouth people in real life think they can charm anyone, people in Faerun are no different, not even heros and boy is it fun to see the players trying to deal with the ugly dragonborn who wants to be everyone's friend. Some of the strict strategy players get mad if the other players try to do something they are bad at, but the skill challenges aren't for the straight combat nonroleplayers.. the skill challenges are meant to give the role players a turn to shine. Also.. don't be afraid of modify the skill challenge if the players are taking it a direction that isn't written down..work with them, feed them information based on the context of what they are trying, and just keep track of the successes and failures with key skill related to what they are doing. To resolve the issue of players being weary of rolling and failing, I like for some diplomacy and bluff skill rolls to ask the player their bonus and roll for them behind the screen. Then they don't know exactly what kind of response they are getting, it is less stressful then knowing it is a definite failure, and it is much more tense (and fun for most) to have some of it unknown if the hatchet is about to drop.
If you find your players aren't into role playing, make sure you have an equivalent EXP combat encounter on the side and prepare a hook to start that to move the adventure along and skip the skill challenge... just make sure whatever you are doing is fun for the players! It is OK to switch gears a little if your table doesn't enjoy a skill challenge or combat.. Sometimes I find that everyone likes role playing and I'll have the combats turn into a skill challenge with the banter of the monsters vs. pc's in the fight..or in a skill challenge if most people seem bored I'll throw in an equiv exp level fight that is triggered by an ambush, or some particularly awful failure or idea by the restless adventurers and work in the info to move them on in some fashion.
I know this was long winded, but hopefully my experience running successful and fun skill challenges and what I've learned will help others learn how to play captivating, natural, and fun skill challenges. Just remember the mechanics behind the skill challenge are only for a way to measure success and the consequences of the actions of the PCs in the world. The mechanics here should never be part of the foreground, the players and their creativity should drive the skill challenge with gentle shaping by the DM along with interesting narration and responses from the world.
If you are a DM running WATE1-1 and have a table with several replayers, I strongly recommend switching around some names and who provides what information. While easier to do thoroughly if you know this situation is coming, you can do it ad hoc with a marker. The "correct" pawnshop is now a different shop name and shopkeeper name. Use it as a framework or template and not a rigid script.
Please do welcome creative proposals for alternative skills. Perhaps use endurance for a drinking contest or acrobatics for a dancing contest. Introduce a theme tavern or shop that might make arcana, religion, history or nature more reasonable choices, or just some scholarly type in the bar, but able to answer questions for that smart person.
If you have a table of players who strongly prefer combat, simplify the skill challenge to "finding a gang who knows something" and going into an alley, and fighting the gang, preferably unarmed to make the contest different. If the PCs win, they get the information. It is not as realistic but as this is a game, doing this is an option. Draw on stat blocks from elsewhere in the adventure and just make sure it is a similar challenge level to award the xp. (Doing this well is a little tricky so not recommended for a beginning DM.)
Keith, THANK YOU for the validation that you are allowed to mix things up in a module. That has been the biggest argument from other DMs(that you cant change the module) against my LFR suggestions to make things flexible and more alive for the players in the past.
Also, thank you so much for a wonderful role playing LFR module, it has been my favorite so far and I hope more of this sort come out! Please give my thanks to Claire as well. It is very difficult to fully role play out this skill challenge and have time for the combats at the end...so I usually have to be extremely creative at that point, but the encounter setting and creature abilities, especially the last ones, provide excellent flexibility. My favorite combat moment was: My favorite combat moment in Wate 1-1:Show
In the inn where a barbarian warforge named "War" took two OA's from the drakes and did a long jump out of the second story inn window to follow the gnomes. The gnomes failed a save check from laughter and failed their stealth because they were laughing too hard... and then the poor warforge was almost dead from the jump and then failed a couple of attempts to climb the rope.
I don't want to high jack the thread completely for wate 1-1, so feel free to respond off thread or we could start another, but.. The biggest contrived moment, suggestion welcome:Show
When a group fell for the gnomes trick upstairs and ran out to try to catch them. The module reads that the gnome escapes to move the encounter to the street with the fallen statue, but the players had a hard time believing that they could of escaped, with the wagon out of site before they were able to run back outside through the back. I made the back door locked so they burnned time going around front or getting through the door, but at a full run it still seemed implausible the gnomes were that much more quick in getting the wagon away. I made it so that the gnomes were basically hauling butt and left an easy trail of distraught people and knocked over items from their reckless run away.
If you have any suggestions on ideal ways to cut the last two encounters in the modules short that fit well with the intention please let me know! Again, thank you.
I've played and run skill challenges that were fun and engaging, and ones that were boring and borderline painful.
The main difference seems to be the DM's attitude and flexibility. Does the DM groan and sigh when he announces that you are about to have a skill challenge? Does he allow only skills listed? Disallow any bonuses to rolls for role playing or creative (but sensible) ideas? Then it's probably going to be a bad skill challenge.
Other people have given some good suggestions, like giving a +2 for role-playing or successfully using a skill that doesn't really apply.
Adjudicating non-combat encounters has always been difficult in D&D. Skill challenges are not perfect, but in my experience they can be a fun addition to the game with the right approach and attitude.
If the players are more interested in story or RP than the combat, or the combat has turned into senseless reduction of hps, the DM should feel empowered to call an end to the combat.
In the case of adventures in Waterdeep, unless the villains are assassins sent to kill the PCs and/or other murder, most thieves, drunks, or random crooks will not fight to the death. They know the penalties for murder are a lot worse than for thievery in Waterdeep. In the case of the thieves in WATE1-1, once the wererat is down and the battle has turned, feel free to have the thieves surrender. In the case of the gnomes, they really want to get away rather than fight, but if they have tried a couple of tricks or so, i.e., you have milked the encounter for that aspect, don't feel you have to play out the entire chase scene across the City. Neither group are willing to die to avoid going to prison.
Note: that may not be true in more lawless areas of Waterdeep, such as Downshadow. Or with undead, who don't necessarily pay attention to the law anyway.
I've played through a lot of LFR skill challenges, and overall I've liked about half of them. In general, I'd say that a good DM (and group) can rescue a poorly-written SC, while poor ones can doom even the best-written ones to mediocrity - but when you get a good DM running a well-structured SC, with players who are prepared to treat it as a role-playing encounter rather than a set of dice rolls, the result is just really great fun.
My best advice for DMs and writers alike would be to structure the skill challenge purely as a roleplaying challenge, and let the players take the lead primarily by working out what they want to do, rather than what skill they want to use. They know their characters, so they'll take paths that work to their strengths in any case. When the encounter calls for a skill check, ask for one.
I ran SPEC1-1 this weekend, and the first skill challenge there was one of the best we've had - one of the best role-playing scenes we've had, even. The way it was written up allowed me to present it in a way that had them clamouring to take part, and the skill checks flowed naturally from there - greatly helped by the number and variety of well-described checks and results in the scenario.
One pitfall I've seen is that, when a player suggests a course of action, the DM will tend to assume their character is trying to carry it out. Don't be shy to encourage players to throw out suggestions for other players' PCs to run with.
I think one of the ongoing problems is writers turning basic interaction into skill challenges. This creates two distinct problems. First, many of these are straightforward problems with relatively obvious solutions. So, after the players have done the three checks that should solve the stated problem, the DM left with an encounter that says the players need 6 or 8 to move on.
Second, anything that is an official skill challenge gets an experience budget. So something that should have been 10 minutes of roleplay becomes an exercise in the DM thinking up excuses to why the players aren't done yet and then makes the rest of the adventure weaker by syphoning off the XP budget.
So, in short the secret of skill challenges tends to be making sure they should be skill challenges in the first place. I tend to run my skill challenges transparently, that is to say that the players don't know if it is a 'skill challenge' or if that are simply doing a bunch for things that need skill checks. If the players can 'solve' the problem in a few checks, I tend to ignore the official success number I should be waiting for.
This little signature is my official and insignificant protest to the (not so new now) community redesign.
The layout is lousy. The colour scheme burns the eyes. The wiki is a crippled monstrosity. So many posters have abandoned this site that some major forums are going days without posts. The 4e General Discussion board regularly has posts on the front page from two or even three days ago. This is pathetic.
Since I have to assume Wizards has a vested interest in an active community I wish someone in charge would fix this mess.
I have found that the most important things in a skill challenge are:
1. Conveying to the Players WHAT The goal of the skill challenge is. If you say to the PCs:
"Ok you enter a labyrinth, this is a skill challenge, the primary skills are:" That utterly fails. I have seen several DMs do this.
Instead say:
"Travelling up ahead, you enter a long tunnel, at the end of it are three possible exits. After checking each one one out, they also have three possible exits each. It appears that the way ahead is not clear. However, it's obvious that the bandits came through this area, what do you do?"
You have conveyed the same information here, but in the second case, PCs will give their responses in character, and will find something within their PC's abilities to do, and that gives you, the DM, the opportunity to decide if it works or not.
That brings me to my second point:
2. Ignore the bit in the mod that says what skills are primary and what is not, also ignore the banning of skills. That is a guideline.
Many skills like intimidate (the main fighter interpersonal skill) etc, are perfectly viable if used wisely and intelligently. Just because threatening a statue guardian with destruction might not work, doesn't mean you can't appeal to it's sense of preservation regarding the TOMB, etc that could be threatened if a fight was initiated.
3. Mod writers, remember that skill challenges should NOT replace simple checks.
As Telvin3d said: this is NOT on. Need to convince a lone peasant to help? part of a greater skill challenge definitely, one all by itself, hell NO. There are a few out there where a simple diplomacy check/thievery will do. If as a DM you are confronted with this, try and use the old art of a slot zero or good prepping to change it into a much larger and more realistic challenge - such as convincing a GROUP of peasants/refugees/merchants, with several different 'scenes' and characters involved, such as the dodgy fence, the greedy old codger, and the loyal but slow farmer.
4. Remember to encourage participation, Don't Let the ones with the highest mods do everything.
This is the MOST important point. Don't let it turn into a discussion of modifiers and the mechanic, by assigning a goal, and leaving it to the players to work out how to achieve said goal, the fighter will say stuff like "I throw down boxes and stuff to slow down the mob chasing us" (rolls athletics) whilst the Barbarian Intimidates by "growling and sneering back".
What is important to remember is that it is a team role-playing game, as soon as it becomes a battle for who has the right skill or is the most awesome at it, the game stops being fun and the skill challenge stops being role-play. By all means encourage people to play to their strengths, but if one PC has a +11 diplo and one has a +13, doesn't mean PC 1 has to be quiet/just assist/not come up with thier own ideas.
4. Remember to encourage participation, Don't Let the ones with the highest mods do everything.
This is the MOST important point. Don't let it turn into a discussion of modifiers and the mechanic, by assigning a goal, and leaving it to the players to work out how to achieve said goal, the fighter will say stuff like "I throw down boxes and stuff to slow down the mob chasing us" (rolls athletics) whilst the Barbarian Intimidates by "growling and sneering back".
What is important to remember is that it is a team role-playing game, as soon as it becomes a battle for who has the right skill or is the most awesome at it, the game stops being fun and the skill challenge stops being role-play. By all means encourage people to play to their strengths, but if one PC has a +11 diplo and one has a +13, doesn't mean PC 1 has to be quiet/just assist/not come up with thier own ideas.
Sure, but especially with high complexity skill challenges, you suffer a non-trivial chance of complete failure if you do anything other than "find the highest mod, get as many assists, do it until you are done." The math of skill challenges is extremely unforgiving and you get extremely dramatic swings in the success failure ratio by apparently minor changes in the success chance for the individual skill checks. As a player, it is generally my goal to get the guy with the highest mod to roll the check and I'd prefer not to be pushed into 30-50% failure range by DMs who think that everyone ought to participate. (On a complexity 12 skill challenge, it looks like even if every skill check your party rolls has a 75% chance of success, it looks like you have more than a 50% chance of failing the skill challenge--add a couple of 65%s or a 50% in there and you're probably toast).
I can understand where you are coming from, but from the player's side of the table, it is a strategy for losing.
