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5 years ago ::
Oct 13, 2008 - 2:07PM
#31
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Sorry, no dig intended. The point about 4e's "big rule" about FUN is well taken. In reading the past posts, I just wasn't sure we were arguing the same things, and I kinda wanted to through my 2 coppers into the fray.
The death rules need clarification (period)
There we go. That is where I stand.
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5 years ago ::
Oct 13, 2008 - 3:32PM
#32
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Date Joined:
Feb 28, 2008
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Hi all. I'm responsible for a couple of the posts Howie linked to, so I thought I'd chime in.
Kildaere has it on the money. As the boilerplate reads now, the two options for returning to life become available ONLY AFTER meeting the three provisions, one of which is "access to the Raise Dead ritual (either by having the ritual or returning to civilization)" and another of which is "access to the body." In the event of a TPK, nobody returns to civilization and thus no one can be raised.
A lot of people seem to think this "isn't fun". While a session that ends in a TPK and a lost character isn't something I'd want to do on a regular basis, the fact that such an ending is even possible adds greatly to my enjoyment of the game. I've never been a big fan of playing video games on "God Mode" because there's no challenge. Knowing that any character I make, no matter how weak he is or how foolishly I play him, is somehow "destined" to make thirtieth level, is similarly lame. I want my character's actions to have consequences, of which the penultimate is permanent death.
Deus ex machina is something I've always always always tried to avoid in any D&D game I ran. I like my fantasy worlds to be internally consistent and somewhat rational, because it makes it much easier for me to suspend my disbelief and helps keep things fair for my players. The idea that "The PCs grandma goes into the frost giant/dragon/aboleth lair and brings your bodies out so you can come back to life" is indescribably lame. You frikkin' died. Why is that such a big deal? Make a new character! It's a GAME!!
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5 years ago ::
Oct 13, 2008 - 7:04PM
#33
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Date Joined:
Aug 28, 2008
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I have to agree...
There has to be some penalty in death I truly thing the higher and more perilous the adventures are the greater the rewards but greater risks... I really would hate to see evetone that plays D&D running around with a level 30 guy... I think getting to 30 should be considered an great achievement on playing your character not just a function of being a time sink that I kept playing and playing....
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5 years ago ::
Oct 13, 2008 - 7:49PM
#34
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Date Joined:
Sep 24, 2008
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You know Since everyone is chiming in on what they think.. I'll throw my two coppers in...and to my knowledge nobody is right or wrong. Its the rule that is too open to interpretation.
It is my belief that the intention is to allow characters to return to life at the end of every adventure. With some exceptions. Exception A) is the Player doesn't want to return the character to life. Exception B) Something happens to the character in game the prohibits the character from returning to life. Falling into a volcano or desintigration or something along those lines. ( i believe these will be very special situations and very clearly defined within the text of the adventure)
If I read the raise dead right pg 311 of the PHB. only part of the body is necessary to raise a person and the time frame is quite long 30 days. Clearly the intention is not to overly penalize a player for a character death. i believe the intent if not the wording to mean that as long as the body still exist see exception B above the player may opt to return the character to life using Meathod A or B. I also believe that the DM leeway does not extend into actions outside of the adventure. The DM is free to modify the adventure in a way to make it more enjoyable for the players. His rulings do not extend beyond that arena. There is no provision for a DM to extend himself beyond the written rules of the adventure. He has no official authority within the campaign except as adjudicator and presenter of the story at hand. His authority begins and ends there. There is nothing specifically set aside for the DM to do other than present the module. Everything else and I do mean everything else is specifically up to the player in question. As long as the player stays within the guidelines presented in the CCG. I think hes golden within the eyes of the campaign. I would also like to point to the Chracter Death section of CCG 1.6 to support my claim that as long as its not exception A or Exception B. The character may return to life after death in an adventure. The rules as written there is nothing to prevent the player from taking the dead character to the next table at the end of the adventure and participating with the once dead character after paying the Death or envoking the Charity clause.
I'll go one step farther as for penalty phase. If a character dies one or more. Then the party is responsible for paying the cost to raise the dead characters. I believe this is the point in which the DM steps in. If the character was foolish in his opinion awarding more to the characters... This is no longer an individual game but a team game. I dont believe you can take things from previous Living campaigns and apply it here. This is a totally different animal. It may not appeal to everyone, but I believed it is designed to level the playing field between players and bring more players into the game.
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5 years ago ::
Oct 14, 2008 - 4:11AM
#35
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I have a slightly different take, I favor death being an factor broadly, but what about the variation you can see between DMs being a factor? Lets say you play normally with a reasonable DM who pitches hard, but isn't ruthless. Then you hit a con and get Chaz Buzzsaw, the PC headhunter. He plays strictly be the rules, but utterly ruthlessly, coup de graces fly left and right the players are slaughtered and unrecoverable cause Chaz says so. Part of me says this is just a chance you take in the varied setting of a Living Game, part of me says I would be angry if it was character I liked if I was taken down by a headhunting DM, even if he followed the rules. I have run into this type of DM, but it was with pre-gens and I didn't care. Is this what the 'sunshine and bunnies rez' clause is for? My own take is I would retire a character who dies fairly in a no rez situation in a routine game, but I might well take the sunshine and bunny clause if I meet Chaz.
Note: Chaz Buzzsaw is a fictional character, no harm is meant to actual people named Chaz Buzzsaw. 'Sunshine and Bunny Clause' copyright Wizards of the Coast and used without permission.
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5 years ago ::
Oct 14, 2008 - 6:49AM
#36
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Date Joined:
Dec 21, 2006
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The cost-free death issue is unlikely to be settled to all people's satisfaction. Through a number of different games tabletop and online, I have found some want to able to play without worrying about their time investment and others feel like they need to have a little something at stake to make things interesting.
I tend to be in the middle ground. I don't like the idea of completely flushing a character, especially a higher level one but, having a level, some treasure or some XP on the line seems about right.
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5 years ago ::
Oct 14, 2008 - 7:01AM
#37
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Date Joined:
Feb 28, 2008
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1st mod was CORE1-1. I was DM. 4/5 killed, with 5th unconscious. 5th recovered and exited with 3 of the 4 bodies using floating disk. Did not return for remaining body. Edit: in retrospect, he just needed fingers, so this shouldn't have been a problem.
2nd mod was CORE1-3 (not 1-2, sorry). I was player. 3 of 4 killed including self. Survivor recovered two bodies, but chose not to risk recovery of third (deep in complex with baddies near).
David Let's look at Howie's experience as an example. These sessions seem to me like they would have been very memorable for the players involved, which, in my book, translates into "fun". The last standing player in each of these had some tough choices to make, with consequences attached. Fight on? Cut and run? Try to rescue his friends bodies? Sounds like tense, nail-biting, exciting gaming to me.
If people came back after TPKs, he would have simply shrugged and kept swinging, safe in the knowledge that nobody was "really" gonna die anyhow. That's laaaaaaaame. It's way more exciting to look death in the face than to look "NoXP" in the face.
I also agree with a post about three up, that you shouldn't make level thirty just by grinding away. When I sit down at a 27-30 table and we're all telling war stories of the reknowned "tough fights", people who LOST those tough fights should not be there. "Oh, yeah, this character fought THIS dragon and THAT demon too! Did we win? Umm, I don't remember..." Weak.
The option to run away is always there. If we change the rules to allow coming back after TPKs, we take away meaningful decision-making from the players, and that sucks.
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5 years ago ::
Oct 14, 2008 - 8:28AM
#38
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Date Joined:
Sep 24, 2008
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I am ok with most of what was said above, I have to say you have a very narrow view, and are trying to apply previous campaign settings to the current one.
I do take exception as to the "those who lost the fights should not be there." and not to start a flame war but lets look at the big picture.
You can replay mods at will. So irregardless of my winning or losing I could potentially be there. I can be the most hapless adventurer and still make the upper levels given time regardless of whether my character is successful or fails. As the team concept is the primary push in the game. My role individually is diminished. We could have failed for a variety of reasons. bad party mix, bad decisions at the table, bad dice rolls for the players or incredible dice rolls for the GM. The DM while given leeway is taken out of the administration picture. With the rules as they are presented. He is there to adjudicate the rules within the game only, Present the game, record successes or failures and award rewards. Thats is all. With the hard cap levels in place, I believe they are taking a hard stance against excluding any player from playing in the campaign. Gone are the days of Looking for a game at APL 8 for example. They have given you the game and hard capped levels. So have character come play. Death does have a penalty in cash an xp. Ydont lose purchased items in death, but loose change is gone. Tke a look at the arguments against the slotted magic items. Oh I want to hold on to the slotted spots in case something really good comes up.. Or I am saving my money for X. Not realizing of course that if you or a party member dies Cha ching... The DM is there to take your money. I think there is a misleading statement in the CCG and the boilerplate. In that the players "should" pay the cost for a character death. But I think that is only in there as DM protection against an inexperienced or incredibly stupid player decision.
I think everyone is correct in saying Death is not the same as it was before, but the entire game isnt the same as it was before. I don't think you can apply what has gone on before and apply it to now. I think the campaign administrators look at a) games played and then successes and failures.
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5 years ago ::
Oct 14, 2008 - 9:26AM
#39
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Date Joined:
Aug 10, 2007
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Two points.
First: Even taking "Charity of Death" has more of a penalty than loss of gold. There's the -1 death penalty for 3 milestones - that's roughly 1.5 mods. That character receives no story rewards and cannot replay the adventure. This can result in missing out on major quest bonuses or specific (useful) item bundles unique to the adventure. With a TPK, the group didn't finish the last encounter, and so takes an XP hit as well. All-in-all, not an attractive option.
Second: Strict perma-death rules (or rulings) do not foster the cooperative play for the larger community. At cons, I would bet most players would not want to risk a paragon or epic character with a group of strangers, unbalanced party, a Headhunting DM, or a poorly written mod. Many players who have invested time in developing their characters will not "risk" that investment.
When the rules are updated for clarity, I hope that they remind all of the other penalties of death. More importantly, I hope that they do not institute any hard-and-fast rules that would deter players from playing a game only because they are concerned that they could lose a character that they have invested so much into.
Dan Anderson @EpicUthrac Living Forgotten Realms Calimshan Writing Director Living Forgotten Realms Epic Writing Director
Meet me at TotalConfusion: http://www.totalcon.com/RolePlaying.html
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5 years ago ::
Oct 14, 2008 - 9:44AM
#40
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Date Joined:
Feb 28, 2008
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You can replay mods at will. So irregardless of my winning or losing I could potentially be there. I can be the most hapless adventurer and still make the upper levels given time regardless of whether my character is successful or fails. Not really. If, at level 22 in a big fight with some demon lords, your TEAM does not succeed (read: TPK), under the current rules, that character dies and thus does not make level 30. I don't see how replay has anything to do with that.
There is a certain amount of trust that players place in the DM, and one another, when embarking upon an adventure. Knowing that the PCs of the other players at the table have FOUGHT their way to their current level helps to alleviate some of that. Obviously they're good enough to get here...
If you think a particular adventure is too "risky", well, I don't know what to tell you. Have your PC stay home and be a fishwife.
If failure doesn't have some REAL meaning, neither does success.
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