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5 years ago ::
Aug 30, 2008 - 8:55AM
#51
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Also, my apologies. Your continued arguments for the backgrounds allowed after the sentence you quoted had already been posted seemed to me like you were deliberately ignoring it. 
Thank you for that
I still have some serious reservations about the precise language at the beginning of the Special Access Section, and I think RPGA should make some changes.
But I now have little serious doubt that they want to exclude the backgrounds from Dragon 366.
Regards.
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5 years ago ::
Aug 30, 2008 - 9:03AM
#52
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Page 2 of the CCG specifically states what is allowed form Dragon. Backgrounds are not listed.
The table on the same page says "All except magic items and rituals/formulas."
Why does your chosen section trump the other? Where is it specified which is correct (because they can't both be)?
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5 years ago ::
Aug 30, 2008 - 9:16AM
#53
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I give up. There is nothing that can be said that will convince you.
Then what were you doing with that long post?
Were you just flaming?
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5 years ago ::
Aug 30, 2008 - 9:51AM
#54
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Allen: I now regret that we have been arguing so aggressively with one another. Reading posts #50 (yours) and #52 (mine), I see that we have been making fundamental assumptions based on different (and contradicting) parts of the CCG. You specifically referenced the following text:
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5 years ago ::
Aug 30, 2008 - 11:01AM
#55
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Date Joined:
Oct 26, 2007
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You know if every damn time a new thing is posted up on Dragon Magazine we're going to have these huge arguments, what the hell is the point of having access to anything?
Either ban everything or allow everything, none of this ambiguous "everything but" garbage. Cause you guys are going to screw up how you write your rules and it's going to just cause annoyance and arguments.
I agree with the idea that the intention of the LFR rules was to limit the use of the forgotten realms backgrounds, but still with the rules as written as pointed out I also agree that they're foolishly disallowed.
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5 years ago ::
Aug 30, 2008 - 11:39AM
#56
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Date Joined:
Mar 24, 2005
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The table on the same page says "All except magic items and rituals/formulas."
Why does your chosen section trump the other? Where is it specified which is correct (because they can't both be)?
The chart given at the beginning of the CCG is the general rules and guidelines for the RPGA as a whole. Each campaign can add to or limit more as they desire. Thus the chart is the general rule. The LFR limitation on all character backgrounds except for the 12 regions unless you have campaign documentation is the specific rule. Specific rules trump general rules. For example, Dragon lists all except magic items and rituals but LFR says that you can add these items to your access list. Had the rule been all character backgrounds from the FRPG except these 12 are allowed, I could see your argument. But that is not the case. It says all other character backgrounds unless campaign documentation. How exactly is that vague? It does not specify or limit which source, it says ALL others.
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5 years ago ::
Aug 30, 2008 - 12:33PM
#57
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Select a character background. Choose one of the following regions for your character; it’s the place where they hail from, might define their personality or looks, and gives them a small game benefit. (1)The regions allowed for Living Forgotten Realms are: Aglarond, Akanûl, Baldur’s Gate, Cormyr, Dalelands, Dragon Coast, East Rift, Impiltur, Luruar, Moonshae Isles, Tymanther, and Waterdeep. For information on these regions, visit www.wizards.com/rpga and click on the “Living Forgotten Realms” or “Living Realms” links, download the Forgotten Realms Player’s Guide Preview (available in the same place as above), or pick up a copy of the Forgotten Realms Player’s Guide at your local store. (2)All other character backgrounds are unavailable for Living Forgotten Realms play. (3)Once you’ve chosen a region for your character, that choice remains for the rest of your character’s life. It’s as much a part of your character as its race.
I have underlined and numbered the relevant portions.
#1. This one lists the regions (synonymous with character background in this passage) allowed in LFR. Everyone who takes the time to read it can easily see that it doesn't include any of the Dragon 366 backgrounds.
#2. This one absolutely prohibits all other character backgrounds from any other source.
#3. Says the decision is permanent. This bit alludes to why all future backgrounds are banned from LFR. Because every previously made character had to choose a background from the first 12. To suddenly allow new ones would in effect punish previous PCs. New powers and feats don't suffer from this because there are retraining options for those in the PHB. There exist none for backgrounds.
So in effect, a Character Background merges with the racial properties to further diversify the racial pool for PCs.
Now since these backgrounds are out now, it would not particularly surprise me if future RPGA campaigns (such as whatever is done to support Eberron) allow a different list (perhaps a more inclusive one) since when those campaigns are started there will be more content already out. I would also expect some sort of "character background freeze" for those as well.
sasserine: I don't know how you can read the quoted section and not come to the conclusion that Dragon 366 Backgrounds are not usable in LFR, aside from deliberately ignoring it.
Really, the only way the "366 is okay" interpretation will ever matter to me is if someone (with a PC using one of the backgrounds not listed as allowed) sits down at a game I am running. In which case I will direct the player to use a different character or to convince the event organizer for a ruling. I'll be sure to have the CCG with the relevant text highlighted to speed things along though.
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5 years ago ::
Aug 30, 2008 - 12:57PM
#58
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The chart given at the beginning of the CCG is the general rules and guidelines for the RPGA as a whole...
I was doing little more than bringing that chart to his attention. He seemed either unaware of its existence, or he was ignoring it (it contradicts the language he chose to quote) while engaging in a fairly trollish attack on another poster (by his own admission, his rebuttal was not made with the intention of convincing anyone).
We have now covered the entirety of my post.
...Each campaign can add to or limit more as they desire. Thus the chart is the general rule. The LFR limitation on all character backgrounds except for the 12 regions unless you have campaign documentation is the specific rule. Specific rules trump general rules. For example, Dragon lists all except magic items and rituals but LFR says that you can add these items to your access list. Had the rule been all character backgrounds from the FRPG except these 12 are allowed, I could see your argument. But that is not the case. It says all other character backgrounds unless campaign documentation. How exactly is that vague? It does not specify or limit which source, it says ALL others.
OK.
I've already said I concede the argument -- a few posts ago 
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5 years ago ::
Aug 30, 2008 - 1:07PM
#59
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sasserine: I don't know how you can read the quoted section and not come to the conclusion that Dragon 366 Backgrounds are not usable in LFR, aside from deliberately ignoring it.
I didn't.
As soon as I realized the existence of that language (my earlier arguments were based on a different section), I conceded -- 19 posts back!
While I have issues with some of the language of the CCG, and serious issues with the manners of some people here, I have been agreeing with you for a long time.
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5 years ago ::
Aug 30, 2008 - 1:22PM
#60
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Date Joined:
Dec 21, 2006
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#3. Says the decision is permanent. This bit alludes to why all future backgrounds are banned from LFR. Because every previously made character had to choose a background from the first 12. To suddenly allow new ones would in effect punish previous PCs. New powers and feats don't suffer from this because there are retraining options for those in the PHB. There exist none for backgrounds.
I'll agree with your reading of the rules and the current availability off the 366 backgrounds but, I don't think allowing later characters an option that wasn't available to earlier ones is a great concern. A similar issue already exists where those early characters won't have access to later adventures and their potentially better rewards once they past the level tier of later released mods. I personally think starting earlier also has certain intrinsic benefits that aren't available to later characters so it is largely a wash. It's also fair to players since every player, old and new, has an opportunity to start a character under the newly modified ruleset.
Just a pet peeve here as behaviorist. Technically, no one is being "punished". If someone gets a reward you don't get, no one has been punished. In this case, it can hardly even considered a reward but, more of rules amendment that isn't backward compatible. Intentionally speaking, no particular action is being attempted to be changed.
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