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5 years ago ::
Aug 26, 2008 - 11:09AM
#81
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Actually, yes. I think you would see somebody come up with something similiar to the current system.
Well first what was proposed here IS similar to the current system, so I'm not exactly sure what you mean here.
My question was if the proposed system were what was originally put forth would the current system be put forth as a 'fix' for it?
In other words what does the current system have going for it over this proposed one?
This is ignoring inertia, proof that this change has to happen, etc. It is simply looking at the two systems, as similar to one another as they are. If this proposed system had been the one to originally come out would you have suggested that the current system would be a better one to go with?
-James
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5 years ago ::
Aug 26, 2008 - 12:42PM
#82
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Date Joined:
Aug 22, 2007
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This is ignoring inertia, proof that this change has to happen, etc. It is simply looking at the two systems, as similar to one another as they are. If this proposed system had been the one to originally come out would you have suggested that the current system would be a better one to go with?
I am fairly confident someone would have, either citing that the original system was ""too complex" or that it "requires too many treasure packages" to exist in order to make sure everyone has something available to them in the proper level ranges, or that it would be unfair to certain classes.
Let's try a simple PC design, using an "organic" character versus an "optimized" character at 12th level:
Assuming a simple Fighter-type. so no need for implements.
Organic: 12th level, just before 13th level, picking up items as they play, one item per level at max level available, as available, on left, optimized PC on right:
1: Barksin Scale +1 | Barkskin Scale +3
2: Bashing Shield (heroic) | Bashing Shield (paragon)
3: Thundering Longsword +2 | Lightning Longsword +3
4: Dwarven Greaves | Winged Boots
5: Gloves of Piercing | Gloves of Piercing
6: Diadem of Acuity | Helm of the Eagle
7: Cloak of Resistance +3 | Stormwalker's Cloak +3
8: Belt of Vigor (paragon) | Belt of Vigor (paragon)
9: Keoghtom's Ointment | Keoghtom's Ointment
10: Handy Haversack | handy Haversack
11: Ring of Freedom of Movement | Ring of Freedom of Movement
12: Iron Ring of the Dwarf Lords | Iron Ring of the Dwarf Lords
You can assume that the organic P Chas paid for upgrades to his equipment, as available, so it looks like a +1 or 2 difference to hit and AC, +1 difference to Perception, not much difference, IMO, overall.
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5 years ago ::
Aug 26, 2008 - 12:48PM
#83
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Date Joined:
Aug 19, 2007
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For the supporters of the change in system, I challenge you this, pick a level, any level, where someone "gaming" the system can have a SIGNIFICANT power increase over someone who isn't and show me what items make that difference. Even picking "jump" levels (12 and 22), I don't think you can do it.
It isn't hard at all. Dragon Magazine #382 has Armor of Uberness, which lets you change your resistance 10 as a free action.
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Of course you can't figure out what items you'd actually want in paragon. They don't actually yet exist. WotC has a horrible track record(magic item compendium anyone) of maintaining balance.
Yes, I can't show you now. But give me two years and I will be able to show you.
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5 years ago ::
Aug 26, 2008 - 1:01PM
#84
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Date Joined:
Aug 22, 2007
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It isn't hard at all. Dragon Magazine #382 has Armor of Uberness, which lets you change your resistance 10 as a free action.
1) Daily power, so only one use, barring idiot Artificers.
2) Probably going to be expensive, and likely not to show up as a found item, so you have to both spend gold, and use up an access slot, IF you have any left by that time.
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5 years ago ::
Aug 26, 2008 - 1:05PM
#85
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Date Joined:
Mar 24, 2005
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It isn't hard at all. Dragon Magazine #382 has Armor of Uberness, which lets you change your resistance 10 as a free action.
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Of course you can't figure out what items you'd actually want in paragon. They don't actually yet exist. WotC has a horrible track record(magic item compendium anyone) of maintaining balance.
Yes, I can't show you now. But give me two years and I will be able to show you.
This does not prove anything. How would the proposed system prevent a PC from having said armor? The challenge is to show that a PC using the current system is able to completely skew the power curve opposed to the proposed system. You've listed one example of an armor that could be obtained using either system.
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5 years ago ::
Aug 26, 2008 - 1:11PM
#86
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Date Joined:
Mar 24, 2005
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Well first what was proposed here IS similar to the current system, so I'm not exactly sure what you mean here.
My question was if the proposed system were what was originally put forth would the current system be put forth as a 'fix' for it?
In other words what does the current system have going for it over this proposed one?
This is ignoring inertia, proof that this change has to happen, etc. It is simply looking at the two systems, as similar to one another as they are. If this proposed system had been the one to originally come out would you have suggested that the current system would be a better one to go with?
-James
Your question was if the proposed system was the system used at launch, would somebody then bring forth the current system as a "new better" system. I say yes. Somebody always thinks their way is better.
The current system is simplier and easier to understand and implement.
You and the others trying to push this new proposed system keep avoiding the basic point. What is so broken about the current system that it needs to be fixed? Everytime somebody asks, the response is "well show us how the current system is better." In order to make an effective argument that something needs to be replaced, you need to show how it is broken and how the proposed system would fix this. So far both systems have flaws and merits. I have yet to see any argument that shows either system far superior to the other. So if the argument is to create a disruption in a newly launched campaign to fix a problem, you need to show how that problem is a major issue.
Clint
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5 years ago ::
Aug 26, 2008 - 1:17PM
#87
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Date Joined:
Mar 24, 2005
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To the others asking this, let me first draw a base line here:
Would it be unbalancing if the system were that you could take a found magic item with each and every module played?
Why?
Should LFR be trying to approximate the expected Core rules in regards to what a PC should have in terms of magic items?
Answer these questions first. For some they seem to argue that no amount of magic items will cause a problem, but I'm not certain that's what they mean to say.
-James
Once again, you shift the question back to this side without answering the question posed to you. But here goes:
Yes, I think if PCs got a magic item every adventure it would unbalance the game. Not sure why you answer this since neither system allows this. As far as I see, both systems allow the exact same number of items.
LFR should try to approximate the Core rules since this is the flagship campaign and that was the goal to have a campaign that showcases the rules without making all kinds of house rules.
So the ball is back in your court. Show me how the current system is so massively unbalanced that it needs to be replaced.
And for the record, I could care less which system had originally been used. I just do not see any reason to change it. From the arguments I've seen so far both systems are comparable with each having advantages and disadvantages.
Clint
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5 years ago ::
Aug 26, 2008 - 1:29PM
#88
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Date Joined:
Dec 21, 2006
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I know I said I'd stay out of this but, this is the point where those really supporting the need for a change need to break out the chalkboard and wow us with some hard numbers. Asking readers to prove the current system better or just trust in the divine wisdom of the proposal aren't cutting it.
If this is just a hypothetical discussion about if the OPs proposal would have been better if it were what the campaign's heads had gone with, this is just a giant waste of alot of people's time.
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5 years ago ::
Aug 26, 2008 - 1:41PM
#89
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Date Joined:
Mar 24, 2005
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Ok, I went back to the beginnng of the thread and re-read the proposed system. Let me know if I am wrong in how I read this.
For both scenarios, we'll use a 5th level PC.
Under current system:
PC can have 5 magic items
The max level it could be would be a 9th level item
If the PC saved the slots, they could in theory have 5 9th level items
Under the proposed system:
PC can have 5 magic items
1 at 5th level or below
1 at 6th level or below
1 at 7th level or below
1 at 8th level or below
1 at 9th level or below
So the real difference is that you are limiting the max level of the item. The only reason this prevents hoarding slots is that even if I save all my slots until 5th level, the highest item I can put in that first slot is a 5th level item. So what happens say I play to 5th level and never ran across any items that really floated my boat as a must have item? Now I play the mods and the lowest level items the bundles offer is a 7th level item. My first two slots are useless since I would no longer get access to the lower level items. So in what the proposed system does is force me to take items so that my slots are not wasted. Am I wrong in this?
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5 years ago ::
Aug 26, 2008 - 2:48PM
#90
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So what happens say I play to 5th level and never ran across any items that really floated my boat as a must have item? Now I play the mods and the lowest level items the bundles offer is a 7th level item. My first two slots are useless since I would no longer get access to the lower level items. So in what the proposed system does is force me to take items so that my slots are not wasted. Am I wrong in this?
So first you are asking what if in 15 modules you don't find any 5th level item (or lower) that appeals to you?
That would indeed be bad luck.. akin to asking what if you never found any items that appealed to you.
I suggest that item picks be replaceable, so you would always be picking an item of each level and just upgrading when a new one came along.
The second part is that you are mandating that modules never include lower level items, which seems presumptuous.
But it goes to what you believe a character should have in terms of magic at each level. Which is the next post.
-James
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