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MwaO wrote:

Proposal is straightforward enough - for each level, you gain an item slot which equals level+4. So at 1st level, you gain a 5th level magic slot. You can put a 1st through 5th level item in that slot. At 2nd, you gain a 6th. And so on. At 26th-30th, you gain 30th level magic slots.

What Dragon9 described is exactly why the system in place has some issues. His character under the current system is now being rewarded for gaming it(even if it was unintentional)

The rewards really are minimal. I just read through the magic items section of the PHB. Besides the core 3 items, I only found one, maybe two items, in any given level range, that I thought would be great for any specific build. And, honestly, given that adventures are designed to get you through the level in about 3-4 adventures, what are the odds of finding the exact items you are looking for, even if you do game the system?

In fact, I expect everyone will "game" the system, mostly by chance, more than anything else. Given what I have seen, I expect that for most of my character's career (early levels excepted), I will have 2-3 open slots, mostly because I just didn't find an item that really jumped out at me. But, I will never be more than +1 behind someone who is "gaming" the system (and getting very lucky) on the core 3 items. There just isn't enough benefit.

The example I keep seeing getting thrown around is level 10. Okay, I looked at level 11-14 items (the items you can find at level 10). Assuming I play a rogue, I think there are actually three items that are "cool" outside the core 3 items (for any other class there seems to be at most 2). That means, if I have saved 6 slots, I have to get lucky enough that one of those 6 items appears in every game I play, I have to hope that none of the items I really want are level 15, I have to hope that I can survive the adventures given that I am using outdated equipment, and I have to hope that it takes at least 6 adventures for me to get to level 11 (though, it appears that it will only take about 3). If any of those things go wrong, my plan to "game" the system will fail miserably.

I have to ask, seriously, whether those arguing against the current system have even tried it.

-SYB

SYB wrote:

Thus, the so-called "gaming" of the system is actually using the system AS INTENDED.

-SYB

Well I think that's sad if true.

It rewards scouting and punishes more casual play.

Why not simply let every player choose a package at the end of each and every mod without restriction on number of found magic items?

Some would say that would be too many magic items.. but you don't seem to think so, right?

Some would say that there are expected numbers of magic items for characters of a given level.. but you would say that the designers of our system here have rejected that, right?

-James

JamesMaissen wrote:

Well I think that's sad if true.

It rewards scouting and punishes more casual play.

Why not simply let every player choose a package at the end of each and every mod without restriction on number of found magic items?

Some would say that would be too many magic items.. but you don't seem to think so, right?

Some would say that there are expected numbers of magic items for characters of a given level.. but you would say that the designers of our system here have rejected that, right?

-James

Actually, no. You are misinterpreting what I was saying. This is probably partially my fault. I could have been more clear.

I do think 1 magic item per adventure is too many. And, I do think there is an expexted number of magic items for a given character level.

But, I think that saying the expected number is 1/level is a tad too simplistic. I think it averages out there, but I think the designers expect players will take magic items in waves. Magic items improve over 5 levels. Over any given 5 levels, I think players will often avoid magic items for 2-3 levels and then take 4-5 new magic items over the remaining 2-3 levels.

This isn't gaming the system, as much as being sensible. There is no reason to improve you +2 Dwarven Plate if your only armor choices are other +2 armor choices. In fact, if you have upgraded all your core 3 items to +2 items and you are level 5 or 6, there is basically no reason to get a new core item until level 7 (the first time a +3 item might become available). Non-core items can occassionally be upgraded, but sometimes an item only has one tier version and will suit you for life (many boots fall into this category). So, across 5 levels, you may just not be interested in 5 magic items.

In fact, I believe the designers EXPECT that it will be common for a player to have a few spare slots, just because not enough interesting items came along for a certain set of levels. I also believe the designers EXPECT that some levels will come along when the players will be much more interested in magic items and will grab 2, 3, or 4 in that level, wiping out their spare slots (or nearly wiping them out). Grabbing magic items in "waves" like this is rather natural given the 5 level pattern of magic items. And, while others have claimed this is "gaming" the system, I believe it is the natural results of the system, is the expected results of the system, and will generally have PCs using the expected number of magic items at most levels.

-SYB

SYB wrote:

I do think 1 magic item per adventure is too many. And, I do think there is an expexted number of magic items for a given character level.

What would the range on that expectation be?

You say that 1 item for each module played is too many. That's fine.

But let's assume that someone had a 12th level character that had 36 items (3 items gained at each level say). And you said to them that it was too much and they had to reduce down to only 12 items.

Would it matter in terms of your expectations which items they chose?

I think it matters.

I think the current system has rough edges and they are going to cause snags. There's no reason to let a 12th level character have 3 16th level items for example.

Likewise there's every reason to want each 12th level character to come into a module with at least 3 items around there level.

Giving item level based slots (that could be filled with lower level items) lets that playing field be level.

Letting those slots be changed out from prior choices removes the burden on a player from being saddled with poor choices.

The combination would also allow the rewards to be more unified. There would not be a need to have a 'more gold' option. Likewise instead of rewards based on the tier of the module played they could simply be made as a function of the level of the character playing them.

The range that characters will have in terms of gear in LFR is staggeringly bad. The 4e system is so streamlined in terms of the pricing on items that it would be very easy to narrow this variance without much change from the current system.

Other than the system being the current one, what positive things does it have over this proposed change? Are 12th level characters with three 15th+ level items really desired?

-James