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5 years ago ::
May 01, 2008 - 1:18PM
#111
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I get what you are saying Kenobi about scheduling earlier for genCon and getting ticket sales, but I don't see what this has to do with WotC's submission? Directly: nothing.
Indirectly: I'm trying to read tea leaves, and discern if there is, indeed, some sort of "decision point" in the bankruptcy proceedings that is occurring right around now. There've been some postings by people who are, theoretically, in the know, that had suggested that GenCon had some sort of milestone in their proceedings in late April (might have been a court date, I'm not sure).
If that's the case, then that's why I theorized they'd want to do what they could to have cash-in-pocket before that date, rather than just after (which could explain moving up event registration).
And, if it is the case that there's been some sort of milestone in the proceedings in late April, that milestone may have been the "further proceedings" which WotC was waiting to see the outcome of, before committing to events at GenCon.
I don't see the problem WotC would have with the event submission dates being moved up? Again, directly, nothing. I don't think WotC's issue has anything to do with the event dates being moved up, and more to do with the bankruptcy proceeding itself.
My guess is that WotC's lawyers have decided that, before they commit anything to GenCon, they want the bankruptcy judge to weigh in on GenCon's plans, and approve for them to go ahead with holding GenCon Indy. Yes, we have no reason to believe that the bankruptcy judge would keep them from holding GenCon Indy...but until he rules, it's still a legal possibility that he'd say "no". Clearly, GenCon's plan is to continue to operate, bring in cashflow, and thus pay off their creditors. But, their judge ultimately has to approve that plan...and it's always possible that he won't.
I'm reasonably certain that WotC is aware that their delay is causing consternation for their player base. I'm also reasonably certain that the reason for this has little to do with marketing, and everything to do with the legal situation (a situation which I don't think any of us fully understand).
"Of course [Richard] has a knife. He always has a knife. We all have knives. It's 1183, and we're barbarians!" - Eleanor of Aquitaine, "The Lion in Winter"
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5 years ago ::
May 01, 2008 - 5:11PM
#112
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Date Joined:
Mar 16, 2001
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I think that the most sensible interpretation of the limited information we have would be that WotC do not think it legally wise to pay money to GenCon LLC at the moment. Once the legal circumstances change, that will no longer be the case and WotC will be able to submit their events and pay whatever it is they pay for trade-hall space etc. Why wouldn't WOTC not pay GenCon LLC money? If WOTC wants to go, I'm sure they've reserved the space. The convention is in three months and its the largest at the Indy convention center.
And I'm sure WOTC is on the list of creditors in the bankruptcy. It doesnt make sense to me.
Mike
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5 years ago ::
May 02, 2008 - 8:54AM
#113
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Why wouldn't WOTC not pay GenCon LLC money? If WOTC wants to go, I'm sure they've reserved the space. The convention is in three months and its the largest at the Indy convention center.
And I'm sure WOTC is on the list of creditors in the bankruptcy. It doesnt make sense to me.
Mike Well, let's look at things. WoTC's budget to support the RPGA isn't huge. They do have to make every dollar count. So WoTC gambles and signs up now.
Best Case: The Judge says yes to GenCon LLC's plan, GenCon Indy is on, everyone rejoices!
Worst Case: The Judge says no, GenCon must be broken up now and "sold off" to pay its creditors. Those creditors who paid to be at GenCon Indy 2008 are listed as lowest on totem pole. Now WoTC in its own right might be a creditor due for pay back, but it is a good chance the RPGA as a signed up event organizer isn't. Bad for RPGA, really bad for the little guy who sunk a lot to get to GenCon and make a bit of scratch for himself. :raincloud
I'm just glad I only go to GenCon to run. If there's no RPGA to run, then I don't go. If there is, I do. Makes my life simple. All those guys who shelled out bucks to go will be a bit more than peeved if there is no GenCon this year. Mostly because not only won't they be able to play/sell/run/whatever, but the chances are they won't get their money back on top of that.
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5 years ago ::
May 02, 2008 - 10:52AM
#114
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Best Case: The Judge says yes to GenCon LLC's plan, GenCon Indy is on, everyone rejoices! It's not just a judge. They have to present their plan to a judge in a court (which they have 120 days after filing to do), and then convince their creditors, all of them, to agree with the plan (which they have an additional 60 days to do, for a total of 180).
Worst Case: The Judge says no, GenCon must be broken up now and "sold off" to pay its creditors. Those creditors who paid to be at GenCon Indy 2008 are listed as lowest on totem pole. Now WoTC in its own right might be a creditor due for pay back, but it is a good chance the RPGA as a signed up event organizer isn't. Bad for RPGA, really bad for the little guy who sunk a lot to get to GenCon and make a bit of scratch for himself. But, as stated earlier, the 180 day deadline after filing -when GenCon can be broken up and sold- falls after GenCon Indy 2008. So that Convention will happen regardless of later events.
So, really, the worst case is they suck-in a whole bunch of people for GenCon, cancel at the last minute, then take the money and run leaving even more creditors to tear at the broke shreds.
Before posting, ask yourself WWWS: What Would Wrecan Say? My Webcomic: 5 Minute WorkdayUpdated every Tuesday and Thursday Spoiler:
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Updated Tuesday and ThursdayRead my blog on the WotC Community Site (updated irregularly to avoid spamming the "Featured Blogger" list). You can follow me on Twitter: "@DnDJester"
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5 years ago ::
May 04, 2008 - 4:52PM
#115
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Date Joined:
Mar 16, 2001
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Here's some stuff on the bankruptcy. http://www.adamjury.com/2008/more-news- … cy-filing/I seriously doubt that GenCon LLC will be divided up or the 2008 Indy show cancelled. Its in the creditors interest to let the show go forward because they'll get paid, since its the largest and most profitable show for GenCon LLC. Mike
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5 years ago ::
May 05, 2008 - 2:39PM
#116
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Well, there are really several potential problems here, none of which necessarily make the decision open and shut, but which do (from WoTC's perspective) need to be considered.
1. Presumably, WoTC/Hasbro are creditors of GenCon LLC. If that is the case, they may be waiting to see how GenCon plans to repay its creditors. Perhaps its with future credits at the show, perhaps its with direct pay, but at any rate it may be unknown at this time.
2. There is a chance (albeit extremely small imho) that GenCon will be cancelled due to the bankruptcy. It costs money, and lots of it, for WoTC to attend. WoTC has to get their people there. They have to get their booth there. They have to ship their products there. They have to find places for their people to stay, perhaps even find space to store their product that won't fit in the booth, etc. All of this has to be arranged, and in most cases (shipping excluded) paid for, in advance. That is a lot of money to shell out for something that ultimately, may not happen.
3. WoTC is a strong business partner with Lucasfilms. Lucasfilms is suing GenCon LLC. The licensing agreement is presumably not indefinite and it would be logical to assume that Hasbro/WoTC want to keep that licensing when it expires. This means keeping Lucasfilms happy.
Now, as for the lack of communication, there are also multiple things for WoTC to consider.
1. They don't want to anger any of their business partners and potentiall "call them out" so to speak even if unintentional. Both Lucasfilms and GenCon are partners.
2. Its still up in the air as to whether or not they will attend, so they certainly don't want to say that they are not going to be there, while at the same time they don't want to say that they will be there either. Which leaves us still in the limbo of "Wait and see".
3. Is it bad marketing to not make things clear for the fans/customers? Of course. However, they still need to look at the big picture which is money. Obviously being able to have a big kickoff at GenCon Indy would be good for both 4th Ed and LFR. However, neither 4th Ed or LFR are dependent upon a succesful Con at GenCon for their ultimate survival. Only a small percentage of players actually go to Gen Con -- even though there are a ton of people there. Both 4th Ed and LFR will be dependent upon their content to survive. If players like what's in 4th Ed then they will buy the products, if they don't they wont.
Nothing that happens at Gen Con will change that. Players won't say "Well the rules for 4th Ed are really bad and convoluted, but hey WoTC had an awesome presence at GenCon so, I'm buying everything from 4th Ed I can." Likewise players won't say "Sure I really like 4th Ed, in fact its way better than 3rd Ed but since WoTC wasn't at GenCon I'm not going to buy it."
Additionally, while I'm sure WotC grosses a lot of money at GenCon, I'm not certain as to how much profit they actually make at GenCon. As stated earlier, the cost output to attend by WoTC is huge. Event tickets certainly help defray that, as does the sales they make, but I'm not certain that it will result in a huge profit. Ultimately WoTC's presence at GenCon is more about Marketing than it is about Profit. (and yes I realize that the two are related) In the end though, 4th Ed will live or die by its content, not by WoTC's presence (or lack thereof) at GenCon.
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5 years ago ::
May 05, 2008 - 4:29PM
#117
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Date Joined:
May 20, 2007
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Just for FYI purposes, this is information from Businessweek about the Gen Con bankruptcy including a list of creditors:
Gen Con LLC Bankruptcy
Gen Con, LLC filed a voluntary petition for reorganization under Chapter 11 in the US Bankruptcy Court for the Western District of Washington on February 15, 2008. The company listed assets and liabilities in the range of $1 million to $10 million. It retained Shelly Crocker of Crocker Kuno LLC as its legal counsel. The main unsecured creditors included George Fern Company, Hasbro Inc., Lucasfilm Ltd., Make-A-Wish Foundation Of America, Los Angeles Convention And Exhibition ... Center Authority, Inc., The Westin Bonaventure Hotel and Suites, State Board of Equalization, Hidden City Games, LLC, Millennium Biltmore Hotel, and Internal Revenue Service. The company filed for bankruptcy due to significant unforeseen expenses associated with the expansion of its core business to encompass externally licensed events.
Creditor / Lender Hasbro Inc. Hidden City Games, LLC Internal Revenue Service Los Angeles Convention And Exhibition Center Authority (Inc) Lucasfilm Ltd. Make-A-Wish Foundation Of America Millennium Biltmore Hotel State Board of Equalization The George E. Fern Company The Westin Bonaventure Hotel and Suites
Legal Advisor Crocker Kuno LLC
-Sartredes
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5 years ago ::
May 05, 2008 - 6:17PM
#118
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Date Joined:
Sep 14, 2003
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Just for FYI purposes, this is information from Businessweek about the Gen Con bankruptcy including a list of creditors:
Gen Con LLC Bankruptcy
Gen Con, LLC filed a voluntary petition for reorganization under Chapter 11 in the US Bankruptcy Court for the Western District of Washington on February 15, 2008. The company listed assets and liabilities in the range of $1 million to $10 million. It retained Shelly Crocker of Crocker Kuno LLC as its legal counsel. The main unsecured creditors included George Fern Company, Hasbro Inc., Lucasfilm Ltd., Make-A-Wish Foundation Of America, Los Angeles Convention And Exhibition ... Center Authority, Inc., The Westin Bonaventure Hotel and Suites, State Board of Equalization, Hidden City Games, LLC, Millennium Biltmore Hotel, and Internal Revenue Service. The company filed for bankruptcy due to significant unforeseen expenses associated with the expansion of its core business to encompass externally licensed events.
Creditor / Lender Hasbro Inc. Hidden City Games, LLC Internal Revenue Service Los Angeles Convention And Exhibition Center Authority (Inc) Lucasfilm Ltd. Make-A-Wish Foundation Of America Millennium Biltmore Hotel State Board of Equalization The George E. Fern Company The Westin Bonaventure Hotel and Suites
Legal Advisor Crocker Kuno LLC The first creditor is probably why Wizards is not involved with Gen Con just yet. I think the parent company wants paid.
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5 years ago ::
May 05, 2008 - 7:32PM
#119
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- RPGA Senior GM
- The Baldman
Date Joined:
Jun 19, 2003
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The first creditor is probably why Wizards is not involved with Gen Con just yet. I think the parent company wants paid. and the second creditor is a company owned by Peter (who also owns Gencon). Wonder how the heck that works.
Interesting
Dave
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5 years ago ::
May 05, 2008 - 8:57PM
#120
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Date Joined:
Mar 15, 2008
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Seems the crditors are listed alphabetically. I wouldnt take their position to mean more than that.
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