Okay, what should a good time system do: 1) Limit play to encourage multiple characters 2) Limit crafting between-mod activities 3) Cap a character’s level advancement 4) Allow characters to complete storylines 5) Not hinder casual play 6) Fuel in-character organizations
I still think the best way is to have Time Units not tied to adventuring but everything else. That way a character is never completely unplayable.
Having TUs be spent for travel between regions still allows characters to travel and play but encourages them to stick in one area and play through its mods and story-arcs. When a character runs out of TUs they can’t change regions but they can still play there.
There are 12 regions, so it should be possible to play the majority of mods with one character but possibly not all mods. For example, let’s say you have 50TUs. It might cost 5TUs to move from one region to another between mods, so you can change 10 times. So even if you methodically go from region to region you can’t play every mod. The problem being if you frequently change regions you might rapidly get stuck… This could be reduced by varying time between regions. Neighboring regions might cost as few as 2 or 3 TUs while farther away locals might be 7 or 8.
Having a more fluid system also makes it easier to have favours that reduce travel time or other factors (spending money, using spells, etc).
We don’t know much about 4e crafting, but so far it looks like magic items are bought-n-found more and made less. Disposable items look to be fewer. So this might mean TUs for crafting are on the way out.
Really, I’d like to see a larger number that mods can be more flexible with. Say 100 TUs with a higher “cost” for play. But also opens the door for more flexibility in mods beyond single and double rounds.
It might also be nice to see meta-orgs really supported in-play. Fewer orgs but more reason to be involved and more national LFR-wide groups and fewer small, local groups. If they were more important it would really encourage people to join and spent TUs.
Before posting, ask yourself WWWS: What Would Wrecan Say?
I favor Time units. I think they are a great tool to manage in-game benefits and penalties and other investments of in-character time. I also think TUs are a good way to gauge an adventure's length and help create the standard or measuring stick upon which XP and gold can easily be determined.
As noted above, TUs are one of Living Greyhawk's (many) strengths. I vote for keeping them.
I, too, am fully in support of TUs. In addition to being used as a good standard by which to assign XP and GP rewards for adventures, TUs help regulate gameplay. If a particular PC is limited in how much he can be played every year, then the campaign coordinators/administrators can accurately measure or plan almost any line of adventures by being able to esimate the max level a particular PC might be after a particular period of time. This way, the campaign doesn't have to release adventures that support a particular "APL" until it is feasible for PCs to actually be that high level.
Furthermore, as others have said, a limitation on gameplay for each particular PCs (in the form of TUs or something similar) encourages avid players to make multiple characters, which in turn stimulates the gaming environment and helps make conventions more successful.
I will be VERY disappointed if there is no form of regulation on how much any given PC can be played every year, month, etc. LG was successful for a number of reasons, and TUs are one of the big ones!
Dave Kay LFR Writing Director Retiree dkay807 [at] yahoo [dot] com
I, too, am fully in support of TUs. In addition to being used as a good standard by which to assign XP and GP rewards for adventures, TUs help regulate gameplay. If a particular PC is limited in how much he can be played every year, then the campaign coordinators/administrators can accurately measure or plan almost any line of adventures by being able to esimate the max level a particular PC might be after a particular period of time. This way, the campaign doesn't have to release adventures that support a particular "APL" until it is feasible for PCs to actually be that high level.
I don't think TUs have actually had that effect, partly because of the great differences between players' play of their PCs, and the continuous starting of new PCs in the campaign. The average PC is well bellow the max possible level, an their is a full spectrum of PC levels from 1st to max. The max supported PC level is easier to regulate merely by limiting the supported levels of modules without limimiting PC play artificially via TUs. If a PC exceeds the max supported level, that PC would not be playable until its level becomes supported, so the play must use a lower level PC to play, without reference to TUs.
IF a PC is of a level already supported by modules, why not let it be played? this can allow newer players to have a PC catch up with those of longer played PCs by playing the PC more often.
Furthermore, as others have said, a limitation on gameplay for each particular PCs (in the form of TUs or something similar) encourages avid players to make multiple characters, which in turn stimulates the gaming environment and helps make conventions more successful.
As I indicated, TUs don't do this for most players, and aren't needed to stop PCs from advancing too rapidly for support. Whether a player wants to concentrated on one PC or on several should be entirely up to the player.
What we know today is that TU have been a part of the LG campaign for the last six years. Since this time they have not caused any significant player disruptions worth reporting. They have worked well, serving a variety of game mechanics. They have served their purpose. They successfully regulated time and it’s time that makes the game “living.”
The player base has had a fair time to react to the potential injustice TUs cause and the devs have had ample opportunity to fix them or remove them if they felt so inclined. Let's not forget how good the game has run during the last six years and how little TUs has affected anyone's fun.
Now let's consider a new system, with no time regulation and then attempt to "guess" what will happen without time regulation. In the last six months I have seen characters sky-rocket in level advancement. Is this good or bad? I dunno. Have I seen the lack of time regulation affect the convention muster process? Yes I have. I hope the devs also decide to poll the RPGA Coordinators across the world to get a handle on what happens at the convention level.
The bottom line here is this… if the system is not perceived or demonstrated to be broke, why fix it? Why take a chance on removing a core mechanic that is proven to work so well?
What we know today is that TU have been a part of the LG campaign for the last six years. Since this time they have not caused any significant player disruptions worth reporting. They have worked well, serving a variety of game mechanics. They have served their purpose. They successfully regulated time and it’s time that makes the game “living.”
Not so. They have limited the module play of some, but their main effect has been in limiting out of play activities, such as creating magic items, earning gold between adventures, and meta-org requirements. These could be regulated without the limitations on module play.
The campaign mechanic, in the form of Day Units, was around in LC long before LG began.
The player base has had a fair time to react to the potential injustice TUs cause and the devs have had ample opportunity to fix them or remove them if they felt so inclined. Let's not forget how good the game has run during the last six years and how little TUs has affected anyone's fun.
The developers did not include TUs in the core rules - they were introduced by the RPGA for specific campaigns, thus your dev argument has no merit, as they weren't ever core D&D.
TUs have not affected my fun in LG only because I never played enough each year , never created magic items, never joined meta-orgs, and only made Performance checks for gp a couple of times. I have heard plenty of complaints from those who have run out of TUs each year. I have been unhappy about the inability to use Craft skills to create items in LG, even with YUs.
I don't mind the TU concept, but don't like how it was used in LG, nor do I want to see it used to limit player choice in LFR. It should be specific to out-of-module activities, helping to add options in a balanced manner, rather than an attempt to limit PC advancement.
I don't mind the TU concept, but don't like how it was used in LG, nor do I want to see it used to limit player choce in LFR. It should be specific to out-of-module activities, helping to add options in a balanced manner, rather than an attempt to limit PC advancement.
When this thread originally came up, the person who originally conceived of TUs basically said that they were never designed to limit how many meta-orgs a person could belong to and how much they could craft. That's it.
I agree there is a need to limit out of adventure activity. I just think TU limits have too many unintended consequences and are more hassle than they are worth.
As far as lack of TUs causing problems mustering at cons - I think that has far more to do with the campaign ending. I know several people who don't want to start up new characters that will be retired before they have time to enjoy them.
I also disagree with many of the reasons within this thread given for keeping the TU system. Simply because a system exists is not sufficient reason to continue it. If that were the case, we'd all still be playing 3.5 next year.
1) Limit play to encourage multiple characters 2) Limit crafting between-mod activities 3) Cap a character’s level advancement 4) Allow characters to complete storylines 5) Not hinder casual play 6) Fuel in-character organizations
1. Why does it matter if play is limited?
I can see that at the beginning of Forgotten Realms, without a TU system, you will see characters racing ahead, then for year 2, you will have veterans with high-level characters and new players with low-level characters. From this, you will have veterans only playing with veterans and new players only playing with new players (exceptions being veterans that level their characters out of the campaign and start new ones).
BUT how does this DIFFER from the Living Greyhawk system? In that system, you have 52 TUs, so your ability to advance in level is LIMITED per character. By that TU system ALSO, veteran players will STILL have higher level characters than new players.
With that in mind, character level is going to be disparate between new and veteran players no matter whether there is a TU system or not - but WITHOUT a TU system new players will have more ability to catch up than WITH a TU system in place (without a TU system, a new player with a new character can play many existing mods in a year and gain a lot of levels; with a TU system, a new player can only play that new character so many times, so will never be able to catch up with veteran players).
2. Why limit crafting? I mean, honestly, if your goal in a campaign is ENHANCED realism which is something that proponents of the TU system are supposedly in favor of, why is it that your character can NOT craft as much as the character likes?
Again, it seems to me that people are trying to place limits on players and characters just because they don't like something. It is wrong, I say, to limit something JUST TO LIMIT it.
3. TUs cap character advancement per year. But as I pointed out in 1, that will still open up level gaps between veteran and new players. I do NOT think that character advancement caps are inherently good. In fact, I think they are bad.
4. I don't see how characters completing storylines is encouraged by TUs. If anything, I think them discouraged, as TUs lessen the number of mods you can play with a character a year.
5. I think a TU system INHERENTLY limits character play whether casual or not, due to the additional restriction it places on characters (and players).
6. Metaorgs can be supported by taxes or a set gold piece contribution, and can be further supported by mods written with those metaorgs in mind. A TU cost is possible, but I think not inherently necessary.
it makes you feel like your character actually lives in a world where he/she has to travel to reach their destination
Well all right, and the poster went on to describe how TU penalties for jail time, TUs used to restrict crafting opportunities, and TUs spent for metaorg purposes contributed to the realism of the game, which is something I agree with - although I am still against the TU system.
In brief, my thought is that although TUs DO add an important element to the game, a TU system restricts play. A TU system increases level gaps between veteran players and new players. Although a TU system might be good for the Forgotten Realms campaign for the first couple years, tournament organizers WILL see the results of the TU system around the third year when the only players that can play high level tables are the veterans that were around for the first two years, and I think this can only be bad.
Given that, I think the best thing to do is to DO AWAY with time units and address the problem of level disparity during mustering by having mods specifically written for low-level characters (hence, high-level characters will be unable to play those mods, but the PLAYERS of those high level characters would instead be encouraged to make new characters - it's not like they're making their high-level character burn a mod by playing the intro/low-level mod).
I also disagree with many of the reasons within this thread given for keeping the TU system. Simply because a system exists is not sufficient reason to continue it. If that were the case, we'd all still be playing 3.5 next year.
1. Why does it matter if play is limited?
I can see that at the beginning of Forgotten Realms, without a TU system, you will see characters racing ahead, then for year 2, you will have veterans with high-level characters and new players with low-level characters. From this, you will have veterans only playing with veterans and new players only playing with new players (exceptions being veterans that level their characters out of the campaign and start new ones).
BUT how does this DIFFER from the Living Greyhawk system? In that system, you have 52 TUs, so your ability to advance in level is LIMITED per character. By that TU system ALSO, veteran players will STILL have higher level characters than new players.
With that in mind, character level is going to be disparate between new and veteran players no matter whether there is a TU system or not - but WITHOUT a TU system new players will have more ability to catch up than WITH a TU system in place (without a TU system, a new player with a new character can play many existing mods in a year and gain a lot of levels; with a TU system, a new player can only play that new character so many times, so will never be able to catch up with veteran players).
2. Why limit crafting? I mean, honestly, if your goal in a campaign is ENHANCED realism which is something that proponents of the TU system are supposedly in favor of, why is it that your character can NOT craft as much as the character likes?
Again, it seems to me that people are trying to place limits on players and characters just because they don't like something. It is wrong, I say, to limit something JUST TO LIMIT it.
3. TUs cap character advancement per year. But as I pointed out in 1, that will still open up level gaps between veteran and new players. I do NOT think that character advancement caps are inherently good. In fact, I think they are bad.
4. I don't see how characters completing storylines is encouraged by TUs. If anything, I think them discouraged, as TUs lessen the number of mods you can play with a character a year.
5. I think a TU system INHERENTLY limits character play whether casual or not, due to the additional restriction it places on characters (and players).
6. Metaorgs can be supported by taxes or a set gold piece contribution, and can be further supported by mods written with those metaorgs in mind. A TU cost is possible, but I think not inherently necessary.
Well all right, and the poster went on to describe how TU penalties for jail time, TUs used to restrict crafting opportunities, and TUs spent for metaorg purposes contributed to the realism of the game, which is something I agree with - although I am still against the TU system.
In brief, my thought is that although TUs DO add an important element to the game, a TU system restricts play. A TU system increases level gaps between veteran players and new players. Although a TU system might be good for the Forgotten Realms campaign for the first couple years, tournament organizers WILL see the results of the TU system around the third year when the only players that can play high level tables are the veterans that were around for the first two years, and I think this can only be bad.
Given that, I think the best thing to do is to DO AWAY with time units and address the problem of level disparity during mustering by having mods specifically written for low-level characters (hence, high-level characters will be unable to play those mods, but the PLAYERS of those high level characters would instead be encouraged to make new characters - it's not like they're making their high-level character burn a mod by playing the intro/low-level mod).
Hey while your at it let's advocate no restriction on APL either because lots of people would love to play lvl 16's at APL 8 just to get Favor Access to this or that. WE NEED THE T.U. SYSTEM if crafting was only about using EXP then we would instantly have magic items appearing all over the place. Some people have access to craft really stupid crazy items that cost very little EXP. But they can't because their going to a Con and need the T.U.s to spend there. Imagine if they Crafted an item that cost 1500 exp and NO T.U.s a 10th level charactor could play up and negate the loss with one APL twelve adventure.
This doesn’t need to be enforced to encourage people to make multiple characters. If a person feels like trying something different then they can just make a character at first level then play an adventure scenario which they have not played yet. The mustering at the table can encourage (discourage) the making of a new character too.
2) Limit crafting between-mod activities
I don’t know about this one. The new 4e rules for crafting could be simple and would need some form of restriction. Or the new rules could be complex and not need some form of restriction.
3) Cap a character’s level advancement
The amount of adventure scenarios available, the mustering at the table and the retirement dates will probably help cap a player’s level advancement. If everyone is 1st or second but one person is 5th ,then this person can make another character at first. If a player burns through all the mods available for the year then they met their cap and have to sit and wait until a new scenario comes out of the appropriate level.
4) Allow characters to complete storylines
The players I personally inducted into the RPGA in late February of ’07 would disagree with this one. They only met once month and since the announcement of 4e have abandoned Greyhawk for home play games.
5) Not hinder casual play
If you are running an adventure scenario at home then a gaming group can get away with causal play. If you are at a convention then you have 4 hours to finish the adventure. TU's have no bearing on causal play when the module has a built in time limit.
6) Fuel in-character organizations
I’m not sure how they are going to handle or even allow meta-organizations at the start of the year. I will wait in see.
Remember, no matter where ever you go, there you are. --Shaundakul
Hey while your at it let's advocate no restriction on APL either because lots of people would love to play lvl 16's at APL 8 just to get Favor Access to this or that. WE NEED THE T.U. SYSTEM if crafting was only about using EXP then we would instantly have magic items appearing all over the place. Some people have access to craft really stupid crazy items that cost very little EXP. But they can't because their going to a Con and need the T.U.s to spend there. Imagine if they Crafted an item that cost 1500 exp and NO T.U.s a 10th level charactor could play up and negate the loss with one APL twelve adventure.
This thread is about TU's, not about the merits or flaws of APL system. As for using TU's to put a limit on crafting magical or non-magical equipment in the new 4e system, we just don't have any information on how it works. Unless you know something about 4e crafting rules that we don't.
Remember, no matter where ever you go, there you are. --Shaundakul
