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9 months ago ::
Jun 05, 2009 - 11:05AM
#1
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- Senior Volunteer Community Lead
- Dragon Slayer
- D&DI News Guide
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D&D Delve Night AnnouncementWizards of the Coast recently had 15 locations around the US test a revamped D&D Delve Night play experience. We provided the locations with materials and feedback forms and asked organizers, players, and DMs to give us honest opinions about the revised offering for the program. After reviewing the candid and detailed feedback, we have determined that the D&D Delve Night program will end after the current June 2009 offering. In addition to receiving feedback on the D&D Delve Night program, participants and organizers told us what they’d like to see from a new program. We’ve listened to that feedback, and are currently in discussions about other program options for D&D. Once we have something in place, we will once again conduct a public playtest of the program to ensure that we’re incorporating feedback from the community before launch. If you have or are currently playing, DMing, or organizing D&D Delve Night in a location near you, thank you very much for your participation. We hope that you enjoyed the program, and we look forward to creating an exciting new program in the future with your feedback and ideas! Chris Tulach D&D Organized Play Content Developer Wizards of the Coast D&D Delve Night Announcement for OrganizersAs an organizer that has currently scheduled D&D Delve Night in your public location, thank you very much for your hard work and participation in the program. We’d like to take this opportunity to inform you about a recent decision regarding D&D Delve Night. A few weeks ago, we had 15 locations around the US test a revamped D&D Delve Night play experience. We provided the locations with materials and feedback forms and asked organizers, players, and DMs to give us honest opinions about the revised offering for the program. After reviewing the candid and detailed feedback, we have determined that the D&D Delve Night program will end after the current June 2009 offering. For us, it is a giant step forward to be able to respond to the community’s concerns by performing a public playtest, and we will continue to provide such opportunities as necessary for future offerings. In addition to receiving feedback on the D&D Delve Night program, participants and organizers told us what they’d like to see from a new program. We’ve listened to that feedback, and are currently in discussions about program options for D&D. Once we have something ready, we will once again conduct a public playtest of the program to ensure that we’re incorporating feedback from the community before launch. We want the program we develop to be the best play experience possible for its audience. We understand that many of you have scheduled D&D Delve Night for your locations in July. We apologize for the inconvenience of the program announcement after scheduling had already opened for July. We are committed to listening to our community’s feedback to improve your participants’ play experiences, especially our organizers. Therefore, we’d like to take this opportunity to ask you, our D&D Delve Night organizers, for ideas for a new program for D&D. What would excite your players and DMs? What would draw participants on a regular basis to your location? Let us know! You can contact us at www.wizards.com/customerservice with your thoughts. Once more, thank you very much for organizing D&D Delve Night. We look forward to creating an exciting new program in the future with your feedback and ideas! Chris Tulach D&D Organized Play Content Developer Wizards of the Coast Official announcement is available here: http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=rpga/news/20090604
Wolf Star76 Community Advocate (SVCL) for D&D Organized Play and Avalon Hill DDi Guide Interested in judging D&D at PAX EAST? Fill out this PDF [Link fixed - 2/8/10].
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9 months ago ::
Jun 05, 2009 - 11:53AM
#2
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I think this is a mistake personally, i would like to see the program given a real chance. the good thing about delves, is that almost anyone can DM, most people i know don't want to sign up and take tests online to be told they can DM (last i checked that's how the living games worked, that was a few years ago now though) Everyone has their own group and games they play The delve night gets people to go out and visit their local stores more and meet new players. I would much rather a local store to get a sale then amazon or one of the other many online places I ran the last d&d game day locally here, and we had 6 players, 3 i knew 3 i did not. for the other guys who showed up it was their first 4e game, they were not sure, they loved it and picked up books that day. Magic gets its Friday night magic reward program, i was really excited for the delve night to be a nice little reward program too fxguy1969: What, Delve Night gone?!? It uses minimal cost, and generates lots of revenue for the stores, and people sign up to get to play!
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9 months ago ::
Jun 05, 2009 - 1:08PM
#3
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Please consider keeping delve night going at least until there is a replacement ready to go. The short-form pickup game is one f the best things that WOTC has done to support D&D, Tabletop Gaming, and local game stores. It's a great way to meet new players, and for some, the only way for them to play. I believe an interruption will be counter to all of the above.
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9 months ago ::
Jun 05, 2009 - 1:22PM
#4
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And now how are we going to get the cool Condition cards?
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9 months ago ::
Jun 05, 2009 - 1:56PM
#5
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- Senior Volunteer Community Lead
- Dragon Slayer
- D&DI News Guide
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And now how are we going to get the cool Condition cards?
Those DID look pretty damn cool.
Remember - while I definitely want to keep receiving feedback here - if you want to be SURE WotC hears your feedback, please remember to submit your ideas to Customer Service as well.
http://www.wizards.com/customerservice
Wolf Star76 Community Advocate (SVCL) for D&D Organized Play and Avalon Hill DDi Guide Interested in judging D&D at PAX EAST? Fill out this PDF [Link fixed - 2/8/10].
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9 months ago ::
Jun 05, 2009 - 3:22PM
#6
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While the Delve Night program is going away, I'd like to refer you to this statement in the announcement:
"In addition to receiving feedback on the D&D Delve Night program, participants and organizers told us what they’d like to see from a new program. We’ve listened to that feedback, and are currently in discussions about other program options for D&D. Once we have something in place, we will once again conduct a public playtest of the program to ensure that we’re incorporating feedback from the community before launch."
We are already working out new program ideas based on the feedback we were given from the public test. I would also like to point out that the materials (character cards, participation awards, etc.) were universally given a "thumbs up," and any program we develop for the future will likely utilize some/many/all of those types of materials.
I have plans for the condition cards and other cool giveaways as well. We'll keep you informed when we get closer to having a finalized plan.
Chris Tulach
D&D Organized Play Content Developer
Wizards of the Coast
http://community.wizards.com/wotc_tulach
http://twitter.com/christulach
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9 months ago ::
Jun 06, 2009 - 1:57AM
#7
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- Dragon Slayer
- If only he would apply himself
- Dammit Jim, this is Star Trek, not D&D!
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I am glad to see something that was not working closed down. It probably was a hard decision to kill a revamped format, which again shows good leadership to take the results and shoot for something better.
I never played a delve. LFR 1-1s seemed plenty delvish and plenty accessible to new players, outside of not having intro PCs.
In reading ideas posted on the Delve ideas thread, I do think something can be done with the program. I look forward to hearing about it (and the bennies!).
The changes to the book-release days show a nice trend of improvements. Kudos to Chris and everyone else that makes our game better!
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9 months ago ::
Jun 06, 2009 - 9:12AM
#8
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Aww, just when I was getting into the RPGA and setting up a Delve Night, you go and cancel it on me!
I guess I will just have to try to run LFR more than one night a week..
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9 months ago ::
Jun 06, 2009 - 9:50PM
#9
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I didn't get a chance to play a Delve Night, but it seemed that it was aimed at a pretty high level, which is a bit hard to get into as a casual game.  So, we are looking for short pick up versions of the game that do not directly tie to existing RPGA format, correct? What if we had something along the lines of the old DL module setup? Basically, we keep the three encounter format, but have a actual plotline that string between the short adventures, as well as pre-gens that advance as normal characters during the story. At the start of each adventure, the players report which decision they made at the end of the last adventure, and the scenario branches along that particular plot point for that adventure. The idea is more to keep the scenario fresh by throwing different encounter possibilities, then to make it a true tree scenario. So, for example, if we took DL1, the first 'night' would be the escape from the Leaves of the Last Home, then the second 'night' would be negotiation with the unicorn, and the encounter at the temple. Third Night would be part of the city exploration, and how the party handled the Gully Dwarves the previous night affects the scenario here. The Fourth Night would be the final showdown with the Dragon, and if the party alerted the army or not would affect this scenario. From my understanding, the Delve Nights were not interconnected, the characters constantly changed, and there wasn't much keeping groups together. With this idea, you form 'light' roleplaying groups, you focus on story elements, and players can get attached to the characters in the format, and watch them evolve over several scenarios, and if they play every one, they get an epic tale alongside. Which, of course, is one of the things D&D is really about. P.S. I am NOT saying Do Dragonlance. I am saying Look at the DL modules for inspiration on inter connectivity of format. That's all.
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9 months ago ::
Jun 07, 2009 - 8:06AM
#10
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the good thing about delves, is that almost anyone can DM, most people i know don't want to sign up and take tests online to be told they can DM (last i checked that's how the living games worked, that was a few years ago now though)
As far as I know this has never been true. You had to (and continue to have to) take the online test to *order and report* adventures, but not to DM them.
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9 months ago ::
Jun 07, 2009 - 10:35AM
#11
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Wow. Let me try and collect my thoughts on this. 1) Kudos to Wizards for dropping a failing program. Having run it from the start, I had issues with the program. 2) Boo to Wizards for not fixing Delve Night. A lot of the problems with Delve Night (random levels each month, running high level PCs in a drop-in game) could have been fixed months ago. It might not have saved the program, but it could have helped determine how much better the program could have been. 3) Boo-urns to Wizards for cancelling Delve Night without something to replace it. I'm glad that something might come out later, but until then, you'll bleed away the people who were loyal Delvers. Send a 5-pack of lvl 1 PCs and 4 lvl 1 encounters. Is that too much? 4) Boooooo to WotC for teasing us with the cool condition cards. I can understand that you can't throw money around, but it's still not fair. :P  5) Bravo to WotC for not using the phrase "In these tough economic times..."
4ed Darkhawk
"You've got to kick at the darkness until it bleeds daylight..."
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9 months ago ::
Jun 07, 2009 - 5:38PM
#12
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WotC_Tulach Post"...We decided that a mini-campaign with a full party of pregens (instead of just one) was the best possible solution for the goals of this program. We're not trying to create anything close to another Living campaign here; rather, it's supposed to be a very casual D&D play experience, similar in some regards to the convention delve, but with a little more teeth. The 1st adventure of the quarter will be 1st level, the 2nd one 2nd level, and the 3rd will be 3rd. Then, a new adventure arc will start with brand-new 1st level characters when the new quarter begins. In this way, we give a consistent storyline for a few months, yet make the program accessible for those new to it (it's much less intimidating to be handed a very low-level character than to be told to create a paragon or epic tier character from scratch)." I think this would make an excellent format... I would run this for new players, then steer them to LFR for a more in depth public game... As long as it came with those spiffy condition cards... 
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9 months ago ::
Jun 08, 2009 - 1:33PM
#13
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Personally what I'd like to get out of any replacement for the delves is something that lets me sit down with players at the Heroic tier and introduce them to the game with a mixture of encounters mostly focusing on combat but having the occasional skill challenge. I don't see a need for the Paragon tier because generally speaking if they are already playing at that level they are probably more interested in a home campaign, LFR or something that gives them more.
I liked how delves were more based around individual encounters, however it'd be nice to have a bigger set of encounters at a given level and have them generic enough to link them in just about any way I'd like. If possible I'd like to have physical maps too for the encounters, if you keep the areas small enough you can easily get 4 maps per. Likewise the maps used for the encounters could be generic enough where it just references "Setup for Generic Dungeon Map #3" with a small map on the card to show placement and what not.
I loved the half-sheet pregens they previewed, I'd say send enough of those to give new players a selection base. You'd just have to have available sets for each level.
The condition cards were a nifty idea for freebies, minimally having a full set at table would also make it easier on new players.
If possible I'd like to be able to order introduction sets instead of per-monthly, least to cover the first few levels. Sure there would be more much in such a set but it'd give more flexibility to DMs and stores then you just sanction/report-in-the-same-day any time you run anything from the kit. Per-monthly there could be new expansions to the kit based on recent releases, higher levels, etc.
I don't know the cost issues, if any, that there might be with the corporate side of things. If they consider the dungeon delves thus far to be too expensive in the long run they might be less inclined to try something like I suggested. However I can say that something like that would make it much easier on me to actually get them run.
In terms of freebies, you'd be surprised what can be cheap and yet effective. I live in a culture of promotional freebies where I go to school, as every organization and business that represents has some kind. Even golf pencils with WOTC and D&D on them can be effective marketing. I'd just say have them be effective tools at the table and people will appreciate them. Having a set of pencils as mentioned would be useful (I doubt I'm the only one whose been at a table and forgotten writing implements). While I doubt minis could be given out more frequently then game days you could give out cheap 2D cardboard stock tokens for minis (and other things), that doesn't interfere with minis sales and would be really cheap. Freebies definitely gets me more players at the table, even if they are cheap (but functional) ones.
Christopher Green
RPGA# 5209379759
Arcon IX February 26-28th 2010
Oswego, NY
http://www.oswego.edu/stg/arcon
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9 months ago ::
Jun 08, 2009 - 6:38PM
#14
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What I'm wondering if there will be any way to purchase or download these delves, either individually or collectively? I've seen a couple of the delves and thought they were pretty cool and would like to incorporate them into a home campaign.
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9 months ago ::
Jun 09, 2009 - 12:39AM
#15
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I think you can get a couple of them through event sanctioning, I wish they were all available that way since I'd like the first couple for lvls 1-3 or so until they have a new solution for the delves.
Christopher Green
RPGA# 5209379759
Arcon IX February 26-28th 2010
Oswego, NY
http://www.oswego.edu/stg/arcon
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9 months ago ::
Jun 09, 2009 - 5:29AM
#16
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- Senior Volunteer Community Lead
- Dragon Slayer
- D&DI News Guide
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Even if these *particular* Delves are not available - there is still the Dungeon Delves book, based off the same concept - you might consider grabbing a copy and using it for inspiration in your home game as well.
Wolf Star76 Community Advocate (SVCL) for D&D Organized Play and Avalon Hill DDi Guide Interested in judging D&D at PAX EAST? Fill out this PDF [Link fixed - 2/8/10].
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9 months ago ::
Jun 09, 2009 - 3:11PM
#17
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Hello,
I was the DM for the Delve Night at The Realm Games in Brea, Ca. Overall, myself and the players had a good time with the Delve Night. But, the different level each month was problematic. Players like to level up I think.
We'll likely continue a store sponsered Delve Night using the a similiar format. But we'll probably have each month's delve level up consecutively (July's delve would be level 1, August level 2, etc...). This way it'd reward consistant players, but we'd welcome new or randomly attending players. We'd have appropriate level pre-gens available each month for new players.
Anyway, we had a fun time with it and I hope something like it is continued in the future.
-Drumheller
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9 months ago ::
Jun 09, 2009 - 3:44PM
#18
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Even if these *particular* Delves are not available - there is still the Dungeon Delves book, based off the same concept - you might consider grabbing a copy and using it for inspiration in your home game as well.
I got a copy of Dungeon Delve at DDXP for being a DM, so I had it before it was released, and I love it!!! I actually expanded the level 1 delve in it with a skill challenge in the beginning to introduce my girlfriend to the game.
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9 months ago ::
Jun 10, 2009 - 5:33AM
#19
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Not too long ago I read a thread somewhere on these boards (of course I can't find it now) where people were writing "one page adventures". It seems to me if we can locate and perhaps revive that thread we may be able to use that as a launchpad for player created delves while we wait for the new official program.
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9 months ago ::
Jun 10, 2009 - 5:54AM
#20
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Are you referring to ChattyDM's One Page Dungeon contest? Some of the entries are here: http://chattydm.net/2009/05/25/the-comp … n-entries/
Trouble accessing the WotC Customer Service system? See this threadCurrently playing RPGA events in Sheffield, UK. Contact me for more details.
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9 months ago ::
Jun 10, 2009 - 6:35AM
#21
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Same concept...but the ones I'm thinking of were 5 encounter adventures. I was actually able to locate one of them here: http://mikeshea.net/vault_of_kraal.pdf
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9 months ago ::
Jun 10, 2009 - 10:43AM
#22
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Has anyone else been able to get through to customer service? I tried a few days ago, and I had no luck. Of course, my web fu is under 9,000.
4ed Darkhawk
"You've got to kick at the darkness until it bleeds daylight..."
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9 months ago ::
Jun 10, 2009 - 11:27AM
#23
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The main thing I liked about Delve Nights was the chance to test out and play higher level concepts.
I play enough heroic tier stuff in LFR. I don't get to play paragon very often, and this month's delve is the first time since 4e has come out I've had the chance to experience playing an epic level character.
I don't know why people diss playing high level one shots. That's like the best thing about Delve Nights, in my opinion... grr..
QFT: Oct 13, 2009 -- 9:17AM, WotC_Tulach wrote: Sometimes, you just need to think about this from a common sense perspective - is there a good reason why it shouldn't be allowed?
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9 months ago ::
Jun 10, 2009 - 3:45PM
#24
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Has anyone else been able to get through to customer service? I tried a few days ago, and I had no luck. Of course, my web fu is under 9,000.
Go to www.wizards.com/customerservice and click 'Email Us'. If this doesn't work, there is probably a problem with your account - read this thread: http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=1133626 as customer service people are monitoring it to fix the problems when people post there.
Hope that helps!
Trouble accessing the WotC Customer Service system? See this threadCurrently playing RPGA events in Sheffield, UK. Contact me for more details.
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9 months ago ::
Jun 10, 2009 - 7:12PM
#25
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The main thing I liked about Delve Nights was the chance to test out and play higher level concepts.
I play enough heroic tier stuff in LFR. I don't get to play paragon very often, and this month's delve is the first time since 4e has come out I've had the chance to experience playing an epic level character.
I don't know why people diss playing high level one shots. That's like the best thing about Delve Nights, in my opinion... grr..
Well for a lot of people picking up a level 25 character and remembering all the triggers and effects that happen on crits, misses, action points, hits, item powers, reactions, interrupts etc. Well that's a lot of crazy to fit into the short time you have to "learn" the character.
The one shot beyond the door at DNDXP went slow for us because 2 of us had just leveled out our actual characters to 18 in a projected path of what we intend to do and 2 people had brand new 18's in their hands they had never played before. We spent a LOT of time waiting for those guys to read their sheets and figure out what to do on their turns. Not their fault at all either.
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9 months ago ::
Jun 11, 2009 - 4:52AM
#26
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The main thing I liked about Delve Nights was the chance to test out and play higher level concepts.
I play enough heroic tier stuff in LFR. I don't get to play paragon very often, and this month's delve is the first time since 4e has come out I've had the chance to experience playing an epic level character.
I don't know why people diss playing high level one shots. That's like the best thing about Delve Nights, in my opinion... grr..
Well, let's see. I ran the second encounter of this month's delve at the LFGS tonight. Two of my players were new to 4th edition, so it took forever, as mentioned by another poster, for them to even decide which attack to use.
To be honest, for a new player, even (or maybe especially) if they are experienced 3.5 players, some of the new concepts can be a pain to deal with even at low heroic tier. Add in Paragon path effects and Epic Destiny options, and, even with a fully kitted pregen, explaining the basics can be a pain.
Things a new player needs to know at any level of play:
Action Points
Healing Surges
Bloodied
Healing Surge Value
Second Wind
At-Will Powers concept
Encounter Powers concept
Daily Powers concept
Utility Powers concept
Item Powers, including limitations on using daily item powers
Charges as a standard, and turn-ending, action
Shifting as a move action
Marking a target, including uniqueness of the mark (only one per creature)
Effects of marking as given by class (Ftr vs Pal vs Bard, etc.)
Quarrying the target (including non-uniqueness)
Applying quarry damage
Cursing the target (including uniqueness and never-ending duration)
Applying curse damage
Applying pact boons
Opportunity Attacks (especially as compared to Attacks of Opportunity)
Milestones (additional APs, DIPs, possible other benefits)
Initial hit point calculation (Con instead of Con mod)
Non-Str/non-Dex damage bonus (for 3.5, all 6 for newbies)
Short rests and extended rests
And that is only off the top of my head, and only a couple of them (DIPs and Utility Powers) don't need to be known by new 1st level PCs.
At 25th level, you get all sorts of powers providing status effects, including bonuses for the party as well as penalties to their opponents, explaining how armor vs neck items work in 4th, and chasing down all the bonuses that a Cleric, as an example, would get to boost the healing of a healing power...
He used Healing Torch, a 23rd level Encounter power. Healiong keyword, and an immense area (Burst 5). Along with the normal Healer's Lore and neck item bonus, it adds an additional Cha mod bonus to the healing done. So, it took a few minutes to make sure he didn't miss any additional bonuses to the healing provided, and it was 7 (Wis mod) + 6 (Cha mod) + 5 (Healer's Brooch +5) for a total of +18. Not mention any of the other characters who might have been wearing their own items that give additional healing benefits (Collar of Recovery, for example) or a feat that increases surge value...
And I probably missed one or more other items that could have had a beneficial effect on the Cleric's healing, as well, while I was building it.
Heck, a monster with 1200 hit points is a bit ... excessive. I modified it with the mentioned DMG2 change to solos, -20% hit points, -2 to all defenses, but increase damage by 50% when bloodied, and the 960 hit points still took forever for them to bloody it, and that was with multiple attacks for the two rangers, and proper use (for once) of both hunter's quarries. And the sneak attack from the Sneak of Shadows MC...
Gargantuan creatures with threatening reach 4 are not newbie-friendly creatures...
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9 months ago ::
Jun 11, 2009 - 5:27AM
#27
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I used the published Dungeon Delves for my friends and I to get familiarized with the 4e ruleset. I think it was a great tool, and a way for me to get more comfortable as a DM since I haven't played since 2001.
My first expansion was a secondary delve in the third level set that led players into a sealed tomb under the stairs on the first floor (opened by a gem in the throne on the 3rd floor).
It led into a tomb whose first room was sarcophagi with zombies and zombie rotters, followed by a second room that was guarded by undead hounds (both from MM and OG), and finally some blazing skeletons, decrepit skeletons, and a "level 5 lich" who I made as a level 5 undead invoker. It was the kicker to start off a home campaign to stop a cult of Nerull.
Yes, I know Nerull has been killed off by the Raven Queen in 4e, but this cult was trying to resurrect him. The three legs of the adventure would take them through three discrete areas, first of which has assassins, shades, and dark creepers. Next is the necromancer's caves/tower that have fleshwalkers, creepy-crawlie hands, a brain in a jar, zombies, and a necromancer who would summon 1d4 minions as a minor (just for more fodder). Finally, the main cult arm with clerics of Nerull, fanatics, zealots, and slavers (gathering townsfolk for a mass sacrifice). Each area has a boss with a manifestation of Nerull, which will be fun to play.
What can I say, I love undead!
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9 months ago ::
Jun 13, 2009 - 2:28PM
#28
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For those people that are going to miss Dungeon Delves as a tool to introduce new players I would suggest maybe trying Living Forgotten Realms with the new My Realms adventures.
The My Realms option allows a DM to create their own adventure and run it as a LFR adventure. A DM could easily put together a 4 encounter dungeon delve and use it for this purpose. I am sure one could even use the existing low-level delves that have happened or out of the Dungeon Delve book as inspiration.
The nice thing about this is that if a player wants to continue using their character, they can bring the same one out to your next Dungeon Delve(I mean LFR My Realms) adventure. And if they'd rather treat it as a one-off they can throw the character away at the end of the session.
It might be a little extra work for a DM, but it seems to me that it allows for a lot more options for the players.
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9 months ago ::
Jun 14, 2009 - 5:21AM
#29
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- Senior Volunteer Community Lead
- Dragon Slayer
- D&DI News Guide
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For those people that are going to miss Dungeon Delves as a tool to introduce new players I would suggest maybe trying Living Forgotten Realms with the new My Realms adventures.
The My Realms option allows a DM to create their own adventure and run it as a LFR adventure. A DM could easily put together a 4 encounter dungeon delve and use it for this purpose. I am sure one could even use the existing low-level delves that have happened or out of the Dungeon Delve book as inspiration.
The nice thing about this is that if a player wants to continue using their character, they can bring the same one out to your next Dungeon Delve(I mean LFR My Realms) adventure. And if they'd rather treat it as a one-off they can throw the character away at the end of the session.
It might be a little extra work for a DM, but it seems to me that it allows for a lot more options for the players.
GREAT idea, Zach!
Also, as a tool for introducing new players to D&D - don't forget the Dungeon Delve book. It only features 3 encounters per level, but one more encounter shouldn't be hard for most DMs to add if desired.
Those events could then be reported as "Home Campaign (Other)" in the WPN member site so that everyone gets credit (and DM points!).
Wolf Star76 Community Advocate (SVCL) for D&D Organized Play and Avalon Hill DDi Guide Interested in judging D&D at PAX EAST? Fill out this PDF [Link fixed - 2/8/10].
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4 months ago ::
Nov 01, 2009 - 11:11AM
#30
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Are Delves still unsupported? I saw someone at a game store out of town running delves a couple months ago. I thought it was a DCI Sanctioned thing... if it's not, is there any reason my local game store should run these at all? Or try to? Sounds like there's no support from Wizards on it, so I'm not sure what the point of my local game store doing it would be.
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