Established canon, yes, but as villains. It isn't a question of how common they are, but how common they are as a PC race. And in that regard, orcs and kobolds aren't very common at all. They're also cast as opponents of the civilized races, and are almost all universally evil. And as such, aren't readily accepted into civilized lands. The one and only reason orcs are getting a card is because of the Kingdom of Many-Arrows, where some orcs are trying to become more civilized (Thus gaining more acceptance for orcs within civilized lands). If kobolds were trying to build a similar kingdom, and trying to change their evil ways, then they'd get a card, too. But they're not, and are still as evil as ever, so they're still just another monster race.
Interesting point- while I'm happy to conceed the point about orcs (although half-orcs have been in the PHB for a while now and most people I've played with them simply consider them full orcs, rarely discussing their 'half' nature) I bought Races of the Dragon and devoured it. If any race that is currently "evil" deserves to be Lawful Neutral, it's Kobolds. They're only really reacting to all the stuff that's been heaped on them, IMHO. Of course, you have your own opinion, which is fine. :D
GreenKnight wrote:
Did you just compare hispanics to orcs, which are a traditionally monstrous and evil race in D&D? Heh, being hispanic, I'm not sure if I should be offended or not.
That certainly wasn't my intention. I simply grabbed a scenario out of the air. I'm Australian by the way, heh.
Yeah, a predominantly evil race with a strong reputation for being evil really doesn't work in an environment like LFR where the adventure modules assume a standard group and don't compensate for some oddball in the group and the group makeup itself is changeable and the orc would have to convince a group after group that he's really a nice guy once you get to know him.
Not only would the orc never get into the bar to meet the mysterious stranger because the town guard would kill him - the party elf and dwarf would be drawing lots on who gets to stab him first.
Kobolds I have nothing but pure and undiluted hatred for, since every attempt to give a kobold a personality that I've seen has resulted in a bad joke.
Drow in FR are slightly more palatable because of Eilistraee, but I'd prefer if I didn't need to see any of those, either. They attract the 14-year-old player demographic and end up being played as Drizzt clones or lesbian stripper ninjas.
Drow in FR are slightly more palatable because of Eilistraee, but I'd prefer if I didn't need to see any of those, either. They attract the 14-year-old player demographic and end up being played as Drizzt clones or lesbian stripper ninjas.
Drow PCs make me lose my faith in humanity.
Boy oh boy, how many times have I seen this happen. On the other hand, isn't a 14 year old demographic exactly the demographic we want to be getting into the game, so that he can get his (or her) friends to play and the future of the game is assured? I'm not saying I like the players. Honestly they make me want to shove their heads through a wall. I'm just considering the virtues (not readily apparent) of their involvement, and whether or not allowing for options that would attract them, as annoying as they are, would be long-term beneficial to the campaign and the game at large.
Boy oh boy, how many times have I seen this happen. On the other hand, isn't a 14 year old demographic exactly the demographic we want to be getting into the game, so that he can get his (or her) friends to play and the future of the game is assured? I'm not saying I like the players. Honestly they make me want to shove their heads through a wall. I'm just considering the virtues (not readily apparent) of their involvement, and whether or not allowing for options that would attract them, as annoying as they are, would be long-term beneficial to the campaign and the game at large.
Yes, well, the 14-year-olds are free to play whatever the hell they want, really. I don't care, because I'm not playing with them. If possible, I will not even be playing in the same room. The squealing is so high-pitched it gives me a headache.
Then, it's starting to look more and more like 4E is the game for the 14-year-olds and us twenty-somethings are relics that should move over.
Yeah, a predominantly evil race with a strong reputation for being evil really doesn't work in an environment like LFR where the adventure modules assume a standard group and don't compensate for some oddball in the group and the group makeup itself is changeable and the orc would have to convince a group after group that he's really a nice guy once you get to know him.
Not only would the orc never get into the bar to meet the mysterious stranger because the town guard would kill him - the party elf and dwarf would be drawing lots on who gets to stab him first.
I am actually insulted by this. Allow me to retort!
Half-orcs, of course, NEVER have this problem. The dwarf and the elf, of course, just draw lots on who's going to walk up and stab the combat-reflexes, spiked chain wielding half-orc barbarian/fighter because that's *totally* within their power. He'll just keel right over and die. Next game you're at, try it and see what happens.
Just like the two of them are going to try and stab the winged, scaled, gold-dragonwrought kobold, who'll go "Ouch, that dinted my false life slightly", defensively cast greater invisibility, fly up into the air and then open up on them both with cheaply-empowered-and-maximized fire spells that burn like a thousand suns.
I'd like to see that actually.
Strangely enough, teiflings don't have this problem either. A race with GREAT BIG DEMONIC HORNS that come out of their foreheads, that are frequently unholy demon-associating warlocks and whose very taint warps and twists their forms beyond all recognition. A race that has pure, elemental evil so heavily tainted into their bloodline that its physical presence is *visible and obvious*. But teiflings are not going to be excluded from any LFR module on the grounds that the town guard murdered them before they got inside. Or that their companions slaughtered them and divided up their gear. And no elves are going to be excluded from playing the module set in the xenophobic dwarven enclave because the king's last elven plaything died of blood loss an hour or so ago and he needs another one.
So why kobolds? Why should kobolds have to suffer?
All three races so far have a strong history and reputation for doing evil. But, surprisingly, both do not have to explain themselves to every group they meet. Nor do we have to explain why the elves are saving the human kingdom that hates and oppresses their kind *yet again*, nor do we have to explain why the nobles-in-some-kinda-trouble-but-not-even-that-serious hire low class, mud dwelling adventuring scum. Or why the dwarven kingdom has all these elves with badges of honour. Or why... etc etc etc. I could go on all day. Bottom line: Does your character try to murder every half-orc he meets in the name of "realism"? Or even perform a citizens arrest and have them magically interrogated? Or even question them at all? Why single kobolds out?
So why don't kobolds just "get stabbed"?
Becaues adventurers are a *cut above the rest*. They are better than people; superhuman even. They have spells, powers, martial abilities that outshine anything most people have ever seen or dreamed about. The day that an angry mob forms because a half-orc strode into own is the day a lot of angry townsfolk die. These are the kinds of people that, when sufficiently strong, can fall from a height of ten thousand feet and survive every time, just shrugging it off saying, "Well that hurt. Not below half yet. Cure crit, please." They are like gods amongst insects and this is just so obviously visible to anyone who sees them. It manifests itself like some kind of halo- a glowing beacon of power and hope in a land swathed in eternal nightfall. Even if they're two feet tall and have wings. It's that burning stare in his eyes- the fact that by level fifteen or so he's killed not hundreds, but THOUSANDS of living creatures. Looked straight into their eyes and burned them to cinders with arcane power so immense it threatens to bubble out of his body like mentos dropped into diet coke. The creature is a killing MACHINE. His mind is full of nothing but magical ways to dispense death and destruction on a massive scale
... got a bit too poetic there. But it had to be said.
NiTessine wrote:
Kobolds I have nothing but pure and undiluted hatred for, since every attempt to give a kobold a personality that I've seen has resulted in a bad joke.
And every half-orc I've seen only took that race for the strength. And dwarves are rare because they're ugly. And bards suck. And there were more half-orc PCs registered on the Perrenland database than there were half-orcs in the whole bloody nation according to our population statistics. And every single grey elf is a wizard.
What about the grey elf wizard who does nothing but try to eat everything he sees? What about the characters "Boris Yeltson, Margaret Thatcher, Jennifer Love-Hewart"? What about the horndog cleric of Ehlonna who has a whip, wears full bondage gear and will sleep with ANYONE and ANYTHING? What about other silly characters that aren't kobolds? Do you have "nothing but pure and undiluted hatred" for those characters? So why kobolds?
Can I ask- what DO you like? Serious question now. What race meets your approval? What class? Is there anything you actually like? Or is it just other people having fun that you don't like?
NiTessine wrote:
Drow in FR are slightly more palatable because of Eilistraee, but I'd prefer if I didn't need to see any of those, either. They attract the 14-year-old player demographic and end up being played as Drizzt clones or lesbian stripper ninjas.
*sigh* Here we go again.
Your centaur was lifted straight from Harry Potter. Your dwarf is just a carbon-copy of Bruenor. Your elf character is a DIRECT ripoff of Legolas. Your half-elf character is just *way too close* to Tanis Half-Elven. Your half-orc is just a green Tanis half-elven. Your halfling? Total Bilbo rip. Your human character is a DIRECT Conan the Barbarian ripoff. Your kobold is a Deekin clone. (but I doubt you have one) Your gnome is plain-and-simple ripped straight for World of Warcraft.
God, you unoriginal 14-year-old lesbian-stripper-ninja copyright-infringing hack. Go make an original character.
Edit: As a side note, I'm a twenty-something but I was playing D&D back when I was fourteen. Second Ed, of course. Some of the younger players we have these days out-roleplay ANYONE of ANY age.
Edit2: Woah! I think I had my flamethrower turned up too high. Still...
I am actually insulted by this. Allow me to retort!
Half-orcs, of course, NEVER have this problem. The dwarf and the elf, of course, just draw lots on who's going to walk up and stab the combat-reflexes, spiked chain wielding half-orc barbarian/fighter because that's *totally* within their power. He'll just keel right over and die. Next game you're at, try it and see what happens.
Half-orcs are usually more or less socialised. They're not liked, they're often ostracised, but rarely outright attacked.
Puggle Halfwine wrote:
Just like the two of them are going to try and stab the winged, scaled, gold-dragonwrought kobold, who'll go "Ouch, that dinted my false life slightly", defensively cast greater invisibility, fly up into the air and then open up on them both with cheaply-empowered-and-maximized fire spells that burn like a thousand suns.
I'd like to see that actually.
This, like the previous example, strangely assumes the character ever got past first level.
Puggle Halfwine wrote:
Strangely enough, teiflings don't have this problem either.
Which irks me greatly. Believe me, they should. Probably dragonborn, too.
Puggle Halfwine wrote:
All three races so far have a strong history and reputation for doing evil. But, surprisingly, both do not have to explain themselves to every group they meet. Nor do we have to explain why the elves are saving the human kingdom that hates and oppresses their kind *yet again*, nor do we have to explain why the nobles-in-some-kinda-trouble-but-not-even-that-serious hire low class, mud dwelling adventuring scum. Or why the dwarven kingdom has all these elves with badges of honour. Or why... etc etc etc. I could go on all day. Bottom line: Does your character try to murder every half-orc he meets in the name of "realism"? Or even perform a citizens arrest and have them magically interrogated? Or even question them at all? Why single kobolds out?
Kobolds, as a race, worship an evil deity. Half-orcs, as a race, are merely ugly, stupid and hard-hitting.
My characters, generally, don't like half-orcs, but appreciate the meatshield. Kobolds I've had to suffer because it would break the the table if I walked away and they're otherwise among the better class of LG adventures.
Puggle Halfwine wrote:
Becaues adventurers are a *cut above the rest*. They are better than people; superhuman even. They have spells, powers, martial abilities that outshine anything most people have ever seen or dreamed about. The day that an angry mob forms because a half-orc strode into own is the day a lot of angry townsfolk die.
As does the half-orc. Player characters are not invulnerable, nor are they special in the eyes of the NPCs, especially the law. The town guards don't let orcs enter, they shoot them on sight. Half-orcs aren't liked, but they're let in. Hell, in Naerie we oppress even human subraces.
Puggle Halfwine wrote:
These are the kinds of people that, when sufficiently strong, can fall from a height of ten thousand feet and survive every time, just shrugging it off saying, "Well that hurt. Not below half yet. Cure crit, please."
That's actually a side effect of the falling rules sucking.
Puggle Halfwine wrote:
They are like gods amongst insects and this is just so obviously visible to anyone who sees them. It manifests itself like some kind of halo- a glowing beacon of power and hope in a land swathed in eternal nightfall. Even if they're two feet tall and have wings. It's that burning stare in his eyes- the fact that by level fifteen or so he's killed not hundreds, but THOUSANDS of living creatures. Looked straight into their eyes and burned them to cinders with arcane power so immense it threatens to bubble out of his body like mentos dropped into diet coke. The creature is a killing MACHINE. His mind is full of nothing but magical ways to dispense death and destruction on a massive scale
Are you sure you're still playing D&D? This sounds more like Exalted, and reflects neither my experiences with Living Greyhawk nor any of the editions of D&D that I'm familiar with. Characters don't have class and level floating atop their heads, and especially not their alignment.
Puggle Halfwine wrote:
What about the grey elf wizard who does nothing but try to eat everything he sees? What about the characters "Boris Yeltson, Margaret Thatcher, Jennifer Love-Hewart"? What about the horndog cleric of Ehlonna who has a whip, wears full bondage gear and will sleep with ANYONE and ANYTHING? What about other silly characters that aren't kobolds? Do you have "nothing but pure and undiluted hatred" for those characters? So why kobolds?
Yes, actually. I have a great capacity for hatred. Overt silliness disrupts the game, decreases the enjoyment of more serious players, and generally fails to be actually funny.
Puggle Halfwine wrote:
Can I ask- what DO you like? Serious question now. What race meets your approval? What class? Is there anything you actually like? Or is it just other people having fun that you don't like?
I like to see verisimilitude, a semblance of realism in the setting. The setting and NPCs are very important in a Living campaign, where you don't have as much continuity inside the party as you have in a home game.
In a world plagued by hordes of marauding humanoids, where drow are used as a bedtime tale to scare the children and Bob from down the street was killed by some monster in the woods last winter, it's profoundly unrealistic to expect that the town guards who likely have defended their home against orcs would then allow the very same critters to enter it just because they claim to be adventurers, a class of people with a penchant for causing mayhem.
You can see it in the Drizzt novels and the Starlight and Shadows trilogy. Evil humanoids aren't liked, aren't allowed to enter towns (even Silverymoon turned Drizzt away) and get angry mobs and bounty hunters chasing them. This is fine for a home campaign, but you can't do it in a goal-oriented game like a Living campaign, where they'd merely pose a liability for the group, should have difficulties participating in urban adventuring at all, and would have to convince each new adventurer he meets that he's really okay.
Naturally, we'll get a decree for political correctness from the top and everyone will like those orcs and drow and kobolds. Goodbye, verisimilitude, welcome lesbian stripper ninjas.
Better if he would have included the gentlewomen *runs*
Anyway, I think kobolds are currenbtly not an interstign choice, simply because they won't have political clout. Orcs have Many Arrows, Shadar-Kai have Netheril, and Drow have... well, lot's of dark hiding places. Most of these races actually have baggage that makes them part of the realms in a way other than 'creature that wanders dungeons'. Ok, not sure about the thieflings, myself, but I never really understood why they made it into the PHB anyhow...
I am actually insulted by this. Allow me to retort!
What about the grey elf wizard who does nothing but try to eat everything he sees?
Hey!!! thats my elf!!
Anvil "Baconbane" Lorariel has far more depth to his personality than just trying to eat everthing he sees. As he has matured he has become less enamoured of food. He has gotten in touch with his Elvan heritage and his ambition to be named archmage of Highfolk comes into play alot these days.
He may have been annoying but people remember him.
They're only really reacting to all the stuff that's been heaped on them, IMHO. Of course, you have your own opinion, which is fine. :D
