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5 years ago  ::  Mar 12, 2008 - 9:32PM #121
Simpi
Date Joined: Sep 17, 2003
Posts: 154

Surgebuster wrote:

Since your region's adventures will be playable by these 'foreign playtesters' and indeed, foreigners everywhere, perhaps the above statement is an indicator that some attitudes (apparently) common to your region may need to be reflected upon when writing adventures?


Dalelands is not Naerie or vice versa. Also, I am not a writing director for Dalelands. That does not mean i'm not feeding our most excellent writing director some ideas.

At least for end of LG and my final modules, I don't see need to change my style since I can say my modules are pretty good and players opinions seem to reflect this. Even so, I can admit that I put out crap occasionally like NAE4-03 or COR7-18.

Sampo Haarlaa
Naerie Triad/Dalelands POC

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5 years ago  ::  Mar 13, 2008 - 12:29AM #122
NiTessine
Date Joined: Mar 22, 2001
Posts: 55

The_Jester wrote:

It was removed from 2nd Edition, and the sentiment has popped up in Developer blogs.

And unacceptable to whom?
Well, anyone who doesn't approve of rape I would hope. Although probably mostly women who the idea of being ravaged by bestial monster is really unappealing too or touches a nerve.
(Honestly trying not to be sensationalist here; it's a really touchy topic for obvious reasons)


Hey, I don't approve of rape. Not even a bit. However, it happens. In a world with barbarous orcs who loot and pillage as a way of life, it's going to happen. No use pretending it wouldn't.

When I play a PC, I play the character, not the character's parents. Besides, since when has ever a PC had a happy childhood? You figure that the full-blooded orc would've had loving parents that bought him a pony? He's the product of a warrior culture whose racial pantheon reads like the accused bench at the Nuremberg Trials.

Personally, I think that any given D&D player character would have to have an exceptionally unhappy childhood or some sort of mental disorder and possibly a deathwish to do the stuff they do.

tombollis wrote:

But, under the 4e system, you cannot determine whether or not the individual is evil on sight, without a special ability. Many kobolds in the past may have been misjudged to be evil, for all you know. Your prejudice is not firmly rooted in 4e D&D and FR fact.


You couldn't tell that in previous editions, either, and racial prejudices in the Forgotten Realms are quite firmly established. Drizzt wouldn't have been nearly as popular if everyone had just accepted him as one of the guys.

tombollis wrote:

I find kobold PCs in LFR realistic and believable. You seem blind to the realities of race in the new system.


"Race" in the new system seems to be merely a set of bonuses and cool abilities.

tombollis wrote:

Nor does trying to appeal to a biased "elite". The 4e rules seem aimed at allowing player choice, not restricting it.


No half-orcs, gnomes only available with a special campaign card, less classes with narrower definition... Hell, we can't even decide how our tieflings look anymore. No, the wealth of options we enjoyed in 3E is a thing of the past. Monsters as PC races have been around for a couple of editions as well, with varying degrees of success in execution.

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5 years ago  ::  Mar 13, 2008 - 4:11AM #123
Madfox11
  • LFR Global Admin
Date Joined: Dec 2, 2005
Posts: 4,446
Personally, I find the idea of any shoot-on-sight attitude purely based on race in the FR (or Greyhawk*) weird and trying to compare FR (or even Greyhawk) to RL medieval Europe even weirder. When your neighbor is a 3 ft. tall gnome, and your other a dwarf who can cast spells with a cat that can talk as a friend who cares that that other thing walking into town is a 3 feet tall speaking lizard? Hack, it might be an adventurer** or an avatar of a god and if you shoot at it, it might become angry and kill the whole village with one wave of its hands. In the end though D&D is a game and LFR is a worldwide game. The RPGA's aim is to make sure that as many people as possible are going to have fun. Enforcing others to fit into a particular style of gaming is not the RPGA's aim. If Nitissine and his fellow players prefer to run a game where the locals are extremely prejudiced that is up to them as long as they realize the majority of people prefer lighter games. Lets not get too wound up about this people

* Especially when the kobolds do not even look like regular kobolds...
** The power difference between a typical villager or militiamember and an adventurer is so immense that no sane person would risk attacking them. In fact, a typical villager is going to want to avoid a conflict since they do not like taking risks as much as the typical adventurer

Pieter Sleijpen
Global Administrator LFR
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5 years ago  ::  Mar 13, 2008 - 4:26AM #124
tombollis
Date Joined: Oct 25, 2005
Posts: 696

NiTessine wrote:

No half-orcs, gnomes only available with a special campaign card, less classes with narrower definition... Hell, we can't even decide how our tieflings look anymore. No, the wealth of options we enjoyed in 3E is a thing of the past. Monsters as PC races have been around for a couple of editions as well, with varying degrees of success in execution.


No half-orcs or gnomes in the initial core books doesn't meen they don't exist in 4e D&D cand aren't playable if a player wants and a DM allows it. They may or may not eventually show up in LFR. Until the books come out, we don't know the full details of any race, including humans. Campaign cards aren't part of the core rules, as far as I know, but something specific to the RPGA.

There is a different initial selection of core classes, and they all would seem to have undergone changes, parly due to the changes in magic. I don't know that there will be fewer in the core books, nor that their definitions will be narrower - I get the impression that we will have broader choice for abilities and development within each of the classes.

I get the impression that the simplified and standardized rules will make for a greater wealth of options than ever before, with monster PCs more balanced and playable than ever. The nonstandardized monsters of the past were harder to adapt into reasonable PCs, but that is no reason to exclude any from 4e campaigns, if the race exists in the campaign world and players want to play such characters.

The creation cards are just a mechanism for desiding who can play non core races in RPGA campaigns, and I don't think they are a good way.

Tom Bollis

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5 years ago  ::  Mar 13, 2008 - 5:09AM #125
NiTessine
Date Joined: Mar 22, 2001
Posts: 55

tombollis wrote:

No half-orcs or gnomes in the initial core books doesn't meen they don't exist in 4e D&D cand aren't playable if a player wants and a DM allows it. They may or may not eventually show up in LFR. Until the books come out, we don't know the full details of any race, including humans. Campaign cards aren't part of the core rules, as far as I know, but something specific to the RPGA.


I am, of course, speaking in the context of the LFR campaign.

They've stated that half-orcs will be in there, eventually, with alternate origin stories. This, to me, does not bode well. Also, the new gnome seems to have little in common with the merry tricksters 3E. I'll be interested in seeing how they're going to explain that one in the campaign settings. Especially Eberron.

tombollis wrote:

There is a different initial selection of core classes, and they all would seem to have undergone changes, parly due to the changes in magic. I don't know that there will be fewer in the core books, nor that their definitions will be narrower - I get the impression that we will have broader choice for abilities and development within each of the classes.


Eight core classes in the 4E PHB, as opposed to the eleven in 3E. The rogue class preview they posted sure seemed to be narrower. It seems to me that everything is balanced toward combat and each class guards their niche jealously. I'd assume the rogue's incapability to sneak attack with a bow, for example, is because allowing it would open the doors for an overly powerful synergy with the ranger's archery powers. More balance, possibly, but at the cost of flexibility.

Overall, I remain unconvinced that 4E is an actual improvement. Signs point to "no".

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5 years ago  ::  Mar 13, 2008 - 5:22AM #126
Madfox11
  • LFR Global Admin
Date Joined: Dec 2, 2005
Posts: 4,446

NiTessine wrote:

They've stated that half-orcs will be in there, eventually, with alternate origin stories. This, to me, does not bode well. Also, the new gnome seems to have little in common with the merry tricksters 3E. I'll be interested in seeing how they're going to explain that one in the campaign settings. Especially Eberron.


Huh? Considering the gnome in Eberron is quiet different from the PHB 3E gnome in culture and theme I would say that is real easy. Just do what they did in 3E: change the fluff for that race in the Campaign Setting Guide.

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5 years ago  ::  Mar 13, 2008 - 6:10AM #127
gomeztoo
Date Joined: May 11, 2005
Posts: 2,797
Aw.... I was looking forward to playing a gnome that goes about poking other and gleefully saying in a squeeky voice: 'I got a lair! How cool is THAT? Eh?' :D
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5 years ago  ::  Mar 13, 2008 - 8:39AM #128
CdrcJsn
Date Joined: May 28, 2001
Posts: 274

gomeztoo wrote:

Aw.... I was looking forward to playing a gnome that goes about poking other and gleefully saying in a squeeky voice: 'I got a lair! How cool is THAT? Eh?' :D


So was I.

Then I spoke with some people that had the gnome card.

Apparently, so are they.

Now looking for a different concept in case I do get a gnome card...

Check out my free online comic!
Familiar Ground
Fantasy Humor, Familiar Point of View
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5 years ago  ::  Mar 13, 2008 - 9:43AM #129
JamesRegister
Date Joined: Jan 12, 2008
Posts: 3
Did I miss something?  I have not seen any campaign documentation saying that Orcs are commonly accepted.  There was a post that talked about one city of Orcs that decided to play nice or maybe I should say nicer that the rest of the tribes, but that was in a book not official campaign documentation right.  Even if there is one city the rest of the Orc hordes may be acting as we have seen in the past.  It’s not like we didn’t see areas in LG that were the exception to the rule. 
    There was the Bandit Kingdom where the major religion was IUZ.  I can’t think of another place in LG where if you walked up to the city gates openly wearing a holy symbol of Iuz that the guards would not have taken notice.  I forget the name but there were several core mods that took place in a city where the accepted religion was Hextor lawful evil god of slaughter I believe.  My cleric of Kord wanted nothing more than to burn the place to the ground but there were too many innocents.  The point I am trying to make is that if it’s just one city that we are talking about that’s not enough to really break the verisimilitude of the game.  If you can’t stand orcs stay out of Obould if it’s even in LFR.
    As for the creation cards yes they are out there and yes some people are going to use them.  However having been at D&DXP and having seen what the line was like to get into the dungeon delve, I think that you are overreacting.  For one thing you would have to have beaten the delve three times to get the 15 tokens to buy a single creation card, I think the number of tables to actually beat the delve was under 10(6 was the last number I heard).  Most would have to have beaten the delve 5 times to buy a creation card if they saved all there tokens, many people did not.  They bought the magic item sheets and a few people bought the minis.  So the average person would have to have run thru the dungeon delve 6 or 7 times before getting the tokens to buy ONE creation card.  The second thing to consider is the line for the dungeon delve was very long. Each table was given 30 minutes to run the delve (several GM’s gave people a little extra to finish the round they were in).  You basically would have to run the delve and the stand in line for more than a hour to get to run it again.  I would say that you had to invest about 10 and a half- 14 hours to get you first creation card. The second and third card would take another 7 and a half- 10 hours of role-playing and standing in line.  I know this will not appease the people that believe that if a race is allowed to one person it should be allowed to all.  I just want those that were not there to realize that the people that got the creation cards were not simply handed them for running the delve once we had to work a bit to earn them.
    Lastly I would like to point out that the creation card that everybody seamed to want most was not the Orc that seems to be the major bone of contention here in this thread.  The card they ran out of twice (or so I was told) was the Shadar-Kai Sojourner.  Once again I am not sure I see what the major alarm is unless a whole table of Orc’s or one of the other races walks into town.  But then I recall several tables of Centaurs when they first became available to play in LG.  At least the Orcs, Gnomes or Shadar-Kai will have class levels.  I myself have two of the cards.  I plan on playing a Orc fighter and unless I see something different in the LFCS I am expecting to have problems with the locals when I come into town.  I will have my weapon peace knotted and my hands in plain sight.  Things like the inn suddenly being full or the general store closing wont surprise me.  Local kids might throw dirt clods, rocks, horse apples at me.  However from the way the beginning mods will be written the players will be affecting a small area farming communities or small villages I hope to have a chance to prove that I can rise above my race and become a hero.  Kind of like the drow ranger what was his name?
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5 years ago  ::  Mar 13, 2008 - 10:02AM #130
gomeztoo
Date Joined: May 11, 2005
Posts: 2,797

CdrcJsn wrote:

Apparently, so are they.


Well, we might need to encourage that a bit more, so we can step into the unused niche of gnomes as trickster illusionist/bards

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