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Rules Tinkering: System Shock
2 years ago  ::  Jun 21, 2008 - 11:40PM #1
WotC_Mearls
Posts: 139
Date Joined: 06/29/05
  • D&D Lead Designer
4e has been out for two weeks now. So, what are your house rules? I don't have any, yet, but I have been toying with one. Here it is, for those gamers that want a grittier feel and for DMs who like to give players an incentive to avoid hitting negative hit points.

Inspired by Keith Baker's modeling of a long-term injury, like a broken arm, with the 4e disease system, here's something I'm tinkering with:

System Shock: Where Abstract Hit Points Yield Tangible Injuries

The 4e system assumes that a loss of hit points represents a glancing blow, a minor cut or bruise, or some other injury that a character can easily shrug off. Many DMs still describe blood-letting strikes and injuries, but the game pretty much gives you a free pass until you hit zero hit points.

Some players find this less than satisfying. That long, hard fight against a minotaur fades away as the players tick off a few healing surges and continue on. I built the following rules to give a little more sting to attacks that drop a PC. In addition, they add an element that I think makes tough fights more memorable and more important in the adventure.

The system shock rules give a chance that a PC suffers some lingering effects from being dropped to zero hit points. The rules as written confine those effects to the immediate encounter, but you could easily extend the effects' durations (or the length of a few of the effects) to last until the character takes one or more extended rests.

I went for effects that cleared quickly because I wanted to limit them to the immediate encounter. If I play with the rules, I might modify that based on how they work in play.

System Shock
When a character rises from below 0 hit points to back above that threshold, he must make a system shock check. This is a 1d20 roll + the character's Constitution modifier (remember, that does not include half-level, since it specifies Con modifier; this isn't a Con check). The DC of this check is 10. If the check fails, the character sustains an injury that might hamper him for the rest of the fight. Roll 1d10 and consult the table below:

1. Sprained Arm: -2 on attacks, checks, and all defenses including AC (save ends).
2. Arm Crippled: Right or left arm useless until after short rest.
3. Wrenched Knee: Immobilized (save ends).
4. Hamstrung: Slowed until after short rest.
5. Foot Smashed: Can't shift (save ends).
6. Bell Rung: Stunned (save ends).
7. Concussion: Dazed until after next short rest.
8. Gut Shot: Weakened (save ends).
9. Bleeding Wound: Ongoing 5 damage (save ends).
10. Cracked Rib: Vulnerable 2 against all attacks until after next short rest.

If an effect says "until after short rest" it means you suffer the drawback until you take a short rest.

So, what do you think? Would you use this as a DM? Would you be happy as a player if your DM used it?
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2 years ago  ::  Jun 22, 2008 - 5:47AM #2
Asmodeur
Posts: 46
Date Joined: 11/05/06
Hi Mike

I think there is a good deal of merit to such a system. I have been thinking of something similar for a while, however, I would do it a bit differently.

First of all, I would not only base it off the character going down, but also on being bloodied. This is mostly because IMC, whenever a character is bloodied, it is visible. Meaning a fighter with 80 hps might only tire/get cuts and bruises for the first 39 damage he receives, but the moment he is hit so that he is bloodied, I describe it as a solid blow that lands (differently depending on what he is actually hit with). This of course, would be easily adjustable, if a DM doesn't want to use the system with being bloodied.

Anyway, this is what I had in mind (based on your idea). System shock check d20+ con modifier vs DC 5 (if he was bloodied) or DC 10 (if he was unconscious). If you miss, you suffer some effects.

About the effects, I really dig the healing surge concept, so I would use that.
If a character misses his System Shock Check, he has a minor wound. If he fails another System Shock Check before his minor wound is gone, it upgrades to the next tier (ie minor to small and small to big) and worsens.

Minor wound: lose 1 healing surge and receive one penalty until 1 extended rest has passed.
Small wound: lose 2 healing surges and receive one penalty until 3 extended rests have passed.
Big wound: lose 4 healing surges and receive one penalty until 7 extended
rests have passed.

Penalty : roll or chose (DM's choice) (minor / small / big wound effect)
1: Wounded leg: -1 speed / -2 speed / -3 speed and can't shift
2: Wounded arm: -1 to damage / weakened / arm is crippled (useless)
3: Wounded head: -1 to hit / -2 to hit / blinded
4: Wounded torso: Haven't figured this one out yet

Hope it made some sort of sense,

Cheers
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2 years ago  ::  Jun 22, 2008 - 2:35PM #3
WotC_Mearls
Posts: 139
Date Joined: 06/29/05
  • D&D Lead Designer
I think adding in a penalty when you are bloodied is a good idea. It's a flag that something serious has happened, and makes a nod toward injuries you sustain that hurt, but don't drop you.

I'm not sure you want to cause characters to lose healing surges on a failed check. There's already a healing surge "charge" for dropping - spending surges to get back up. However, it would make for a much grittier game that really, really makes you pay for being dropped. I could see that working well for a game like Midnight.

The interesting thing, to me, is that you could take a system and make it work very different based on the timing. Charging multiple extended rests is a good way to model long term injuries. In Lord of the Rings, I could see the injury Frodo suffered at the hands of the Nazgul as something like that. You might even create skill challenges for overcoming such injuries, with the wounded character making Endurance checks and his caretakers using Heal, Arcana, and so forth.

By the same token, you could swap out extended rests for short rests, and so forth, and shift injuries from things that mess with you for one scene, a day of adventuring, or a long-term complication.

One of the things I've also toyed with is a little system for scars or injuries, stuff that gives a PC flavor and ties his appearance to his adventures. For instance, it might be kind of cool to have a dwarf barbarian who has no beard, because it was burned off when he fought and destroyed the Lich King.
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2 years ago  ::  Jun 22, 2008 - 4:27PM #4
Nautilus
Posts: 1,547
Date Joined: 01/04/07
I've had ideas for a similar system. They've included creating conditions similar to diseases called 'traumas' that model such things as broken arms. Of course, it's desirable not to gum up every combat with checks for persistent injuries. Keeping checks to times where PCs rise back above 0 appears to be in line with that goal. Though it does introduce the slightly incongrous mechanic of "Right, you're up, now let's see where the monster hit you."

I'm not entirely convinced that combats are the best places for a system shock/trauma system. Environmental hazards may be a better fit. An avalanche, lava flow or hurricane becomes a great deal scarier when it has a chance to break bones or incapacitate over long periods.

A scar system is an interesting idea. I'll have to think about it to see what I can come up with.
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2 years ago  ::  Jun 22, 2008 - 5:52PM #5
Nautilus
Posts: 1,547
Date Joined: 01/04/07
OK, here's a first take for a scar system.

Any critical hit on a bloodied PC may produce a scar. This can either be left to DM discretion, or rolled. On a d20, a 1 indicates a potential scar. For every 10 points of damage above 10, add 1 to the range. So 50 points of damage gives a 5 in 20 chance of potential scarring. Otherwise, a DM may decide that a highly dramatic strike produces a potential scar.

If a potential scar results, the DM decides what is it and informs the player. The party must pass a skill challenge (or maybe just a skill check) to fix the wound before an extended rest is taken. I would rule that others must help the PC - no one can fix their own scar wounds. After an extended rest takes place, any unhealed potential scars are now permanent.
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2 years ago  ::  Jun 22, 2008 - 8:33PM #6
Belorin
Posts: 1,212
Date Joined: 04/26/06
Hmmm! There are certain things I like in each system , I may have to cannablize them and make my own.

Bel
Originally Posted by WotC_RichBaker
In related news, I'm afraid I'm going to have to confiscate your 3.5 rulebooks, and force you to convert to the new edition. Where do you live?
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2 years ago  ::  Jun 22, 2008 - 9:52PM #7
mmarandaBissel
Posts: 62
Date Joined: 08/17/07

WotC Mearls wrote:

One of the things I've also toyed with is a little system for scars or injuries, stuff that gives a PC flavor and ties his appearance to his adventures. For instance, it might be kind of cool to have a dwarf barbarian who has no beard, because it was burned off when he fought and destroyed the Lich King.


A friend of mine and I have tried something similar, inspired in part by Jonathan's Tweets "You can always flee" rule. If the party decides to flee and your PC is unconscious or dead then it is assumed you were carried by the party but something bad happened to you during the fight. It can vary a lot from loss of equipment, to scarring, or the much more nebulous loss of prestige. I liked putting it on a chart and letting the dice decide he likes choosing based on the story.

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2 years ago  ::  Jun 23, 2008 - 1:46AM #8
Fabio_Milito_Pagliara
Posts: 138
Date Joined: 08/20/07
Simple Wounds
I was thinking along similar lines for wound/trauma for a grittier system from the time I read the design and development article on hp and dying

if you go to 0 or lower you will get a wound based on the number of failed death saves

0 death saves: 1 ligh wound
1 death saves: 1 critical wound
2 death saves: 1 serious wound
3 death saves: 1 deadly wounds -> you are dead!

penalty for wounds (the simple system)
each wound keep you from recovering an healing surge after an extended rest
each 2 wound give you a -1 to all attack and skill rolls

recovering from wounds
light wounds: 10 days
critical: 20 days
serious: 40 days

continuous rest and healing care: reduce by half the times of recovery
magical healing rituals: reduce the time by the rolled result using healing time

Starvation, Thirst and suffocation (more of a fix type of hr)
I think that the rules on starving/suffocation have a little problem
p.159 of the dmg

as they are written a 1st level character can survive more than a 30th level character

NEW RULE
starving/suffocation (and the revenant wondrus item)

instead of
"lose level hp" per time period

write
"lose level+4 hp" per time period

the numbers

01st level fighter 30 hp
10th level fighter 86 hp
20th level fighter 150 hp
30th level fighter 210 hp


old rule (lose hp=level)
01st level goes to 0hp or less after 30 failed saves
10th level goes to 0hp or less after 8 failed saves
20th level goes to 0hp or less after 8 failed saves
30th level goes to 0hp or less after 7 failed saves

new rule (lose hp=level+4)
01st level goes to 0hp or less after 6 failed saves
10th level goes to 0hp or less after 7 failed saves
20th level goes to 0hp or less after 7 failed saves
30th level goes to 0hp or less after 7 failed saves

should work without much of a fuss
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2 years ago  ::  Jun 23, 2008 - 6:16AM #9
hellmute
Posts: 4,431
Date Joined: 03/31/08
Wow HP means something again!
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2 years ago  ::  Jun 23, 2008 - 6:59AM #10
Fabius_Maximus
Posts: 913
Date Joined: 09/13/03
I'm not sure about laying off some effects after a short rest or by making a save. And if I read it correctly, characters are still be able to rest for 6 hours and heal completely.
FABRICATI DIEM, PVNC!
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