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2 years ago ::
Jun 05, 2008 - 11:03AM
#1
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Wizards employees playing the Worldwide D&D Game Day adventure  When running 4E for the first time, let the players see your numbers. Tell them the AC and defense scores of the monsters, their hit points, attack bonuses, and other details. The first time that they spring a new-fangled trap, show them the trap stat block. Let the players ask questions about monster stats or other mechanical details. Short of being totally transparent, you can at least be generous in giving out more statistical information than you normally would. DMing transparently does two good things for you: it helps players learn the rules, and it makes your job easier. When players are first learning the new system, there’s already a lot of unknowns and a lot to keep track of. Letting them peek behind the DM’s screen makes it easier for them to keep track of everything. And when players know more, it’s easier on you, too. You are spared the job of monitoring information, carefully choosing what to tell the players and what to keep secret. The players can look directly to the stats instead of always asking you to interpret their rolls. Transparent DMing is a trick that I learned from RuneQuest about 30 years ago and that I haven’t heard other people talk about. I used it when I started my Wander Star campaign.
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2 years ago ::
Jun 06, 2008 - 1:59AM
#2
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That might be because other people don't think it's a good idea
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2 years ago ::
Jun 06, 2008 - 9:08AM
#3
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I've done this as a matter of course since I started gaming years ago. I don't tell them the stats from the beginning, but when they try something, I always tell them what DC they need to hit and why.
I count it as one of the best decisions I ever made when I was starting out. The amount of awkwardness and pressure that instantly goes out the window is amazing, and the atmosphere in games gets relaxed and fun, and 'gamey', which for some people might not be good, but for us it's exactly what we want. I would definitely recommend doing this (to DM's who don't take their roleplaying just way too seriously).
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2 years ago ::
Jun 06, 2008 - 9:18AM
#4
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Tropico-
I don't give information away as much as you do, but I reserve the right to let some information spill for dramatic effect. When the big monster is down to 1 (or a few) hit points, I might let that detail out. And if the players hit the creature with the high AC with exactly what they need to roll, I might tell them that they've hit exactly what they needed. Players love to hear that.
I often reveal DCs and ACs indirectly because of a house rule of mine. The house rule is that if you miss by 1, I laugh at you. So when the player rolls, gives me the total, and waits for the result, I can just laugh derisively. It means they miss, but at least it also tells them what the AC is.
This trick is a well-used stunt at con games and other one-offs. The player misses by 1, and I say, "Do you know what happens in my campaign when you miss by 1?" "What?" they ask. "I laugh at you," I say, and then I laugh, and so do most of the players at the table.
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2 years ago ::
Jun 06, 2008 - 10:16AM
#5
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I think this approach is a great idea for teaching the mechanics of the game while doing.
It'll stick in the craw of the "I'm the Dungeon MASTER!" crowd, but that's to be expected.
When picking up the game, the exact numbers and mechanics in the crunch help get people up to speed faster. After everyone's got their feat wet I'd retreat to more vague terms but still drop a lot of information with narration. While working in the raw numbers take away from the immersion experience to some extent, I think neglecting to give any indication of how close to a success a PC's action was is actually depriving the player of knowledge their character would get through the experience.
If someone manages to barely turn aside a blow or block at just the last second, it is something a character picks up on. If your wild strike (heavy use of 3.5 Power Attack, for example) makes you miss by a mile, your character should likewise figure out that he's not even in the right ballpark with his fighting style.
In 3.X you might've been able to get away with concealing that information more easily, but 4E assumes that even the lowest level character is experienced enough to know his basic abilities and attacks within combat inside and out. Players shouldn't have to make wild guesses about the quality of their combat tactics due to the DM being tight-lipped when it comes to informative narration.
- Marty Lund
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2 years ago ::
Jun 07, 2008 - 1:15AM
#6
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Tropico-
I don't give information away as much as you do, but I reserve the right to let some information spill for dramatic effect. When the big monster is down to 1 (or a few) hit points, I might let that detail out. And if the players hit the creature with the high AC with exactly what they need to roll, I might tell them that they've hit exactly what they needed. Players love to hear that. Ho hum. This is the same poster as the original post right?
This is totally different from what you suggest in the original post and much closer to what I do. Players should certainly have access to information that the characters can see and it should be apparently to an experienced fighter whether they come close to hitting (though I wouldn't be so precise as exactly 1 point) or roughly what state teh enemy is in.
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2 years ago ::
Jun 10, 2008 - 8:22AM
#7
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I leak information about the enemies the PCs are fighting as the battle goes on. I think it's essential to helping the players understand what they've gotten themselves into.
I assume the PCs represent heroes. These are skilled adventurers. I've played hockey for years, and there are dozens of intangible things I notice in opponents that helps me play against them. I don't need to be down three goals to understand we're in over our head, or who the top opposing players are. I can also spot tendencies and we as a team might adjust our strategy mid game... all based on intangibles. The score might still be 0-0.
In D&D, attack rolls and hit points are the tangible score, but it's not enough to let the players in on how their PCs would think they are doing. If they are in over their head, they should know, so they can plan an escape. Only the jerk DM puts his group in over their head and then scolds them after a TPK when they couldn't have known until it was too late.
So how do I do this? Well, I am new to 4e, but some of the mechanics still apply. In 3e, I'd use the Knowledge skills to decide if they got some free information about a monster's standard abilities. But as time goes on and the players learn the game, these standard monsters aren't much of a thrill, so then their knowledge rolls might represent their noticing something out-of-the-ordinary about this orc. He's tougher, stronger, seems smarter. Basically, I was letting them know... be careful of that one.
As the fight goes on, these skilled adventurers are locked in swordplay or lobbing magic at each other. It wouldn't take long for them to realize they were against a skilled fighter, for example. In the first few rounds, I might simply say hit or miss. Then I might show them the die roll (players will notice that a 6 on the d20 was enough to hit them and say "Uh-oh"), and finally, I'll start giving them the to-hit results. This represents the Pcs chance to see their foes in action... on them... and the intangible fact that they are either in a well-matched battle or in over their heads.
I'll leak hit point information from time to time, either making it clear the foe is hardly damaged or is only up for one more blow. Again, not doing so merely puts the players in a blackout. The game world is hard to perceive, and they might assume "Well, this is the encounter we're supposed to beat, let's keep at it." To let them do that and end up dead is your fault, if you haven't given them the tools to make a good decision either way.
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2 years ago ::
Jun 13, 2008 - 4:46PM
#8
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Since 3.5, our group has slowly moved from behind the scenes rolling to up front rolling with the following guidelines.
1. Players can call for 'Suspenseful' saves to be rolled out in front of the screen. As a DM i usually accomodate them, then add the embelished slightly drawn out saving throw, declaring the exact number i need to roll before rolling so the whole table gathers around to see the out come. Delicious dice suspense.
2. In general I roll all my attacks out front so that they can see that a 3 still hits AC 32... and can adjust accordingly. Of course round one of combat no one knows to power attack etc, but, as in most conflicts, you know quickly when you are dominating or outmatched.
3. Will, Spot, Listen and Searches can be caviated to be behind the screen per the DM's perogative, and the DM need not even mention that they are being rolled. It does require trust in the DM, but luckily we all understand it makes a better story when some of the illusions work, and the players don't really know if its real or not. This does not follow for hiding from enemies or when someone specifically calls for a check. In those cases, the player would roll, because they obviously sense something is up.
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2 years ago ::
Jun 14, 2008 - 9:12PM
#9
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i get the feeling some of you missed the title. while people are new to game, concentrate more on introducing the game, and less on immersion.
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2 years ago ::
Jun 19, 2008 - 2:23PM
#10
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Geopun-
I don't mind that the thread has taken an interesting turn to a more general and more important topic: managing "game" information during play.
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