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Magic Online Magic Online General 12/20/2012 Feature: "Examining the Beta Redesign"
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5 months ago  ::  Dec 19, 2012 - 3:02PM #1
WotC_JohnS
Date Joined: Mar 17, 2012
Posts: 418
This thread is for discussion of the feature article "Examining the Beta Redesign", which goes live Thursday morning on magicthegathering.com.
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5 months ago  ::  Dec 20, 2012 - 12:26AM #2
Ikbob
Date Joined: Jun 21, 2012
Posts: 18
I'm new to Magic Online, so I can't comment on the differences that much, but the first thing I noticed after I'd installed it, being very vulnarable to RSI, that there are almost no keyboard shortcuts. It's all clicking and dragging.

Except for the Function keys when playing, to skip over some of the phases, there's not much there (or at least I couldn't find any on the web, if there are, please let me know!). I'd like to navigate through my cards and selecting them for my deck using just my keyboard, that would make life so much easier. 

I really changed my computer habits after I realised using my mouse all the time was giving me serious pain in my arm, hand and neck. I found out that, although it takes some getting used to, using your keyboard is actually a lot faster in most applications (at work I mostly use Excel). I understand that the interface should be understandable for new players because there's a lot going on, but using keyboard shortcuts doesn't take that away at all, it just sits on top of everything.

I'm sure a lot of users (even the ones that don't care using a mouse from a health-perspective) would like to invest some time in learning keyboard combinations to be faster at navigating / deckbuilding and playing.

And while I'm at it, it would be best if you could customize it yourself =) I understand there are still no plans for a Mac version so I finally committed to installing Windows on my Mac, but the Mac can only use the Function keys in combination with another key (Fn). What's wrong with using "Enter" or your "Space Bar" to skip through phase and action alerts? Selecting the answer yes or no with your arrow keys? Why F2? I feel like I'm back to the 80's using Function keys to navigate through my MSDOS programs...

So if you could examine what possibilities are there, you would make a lot of users happy! 
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5 months ago  ::  Dec 20, 2012 - 12:41AM #3
davidme
Date Joined: Dec 24, 2007
Posts: 57
They keep begging us to try the Beta again, but only offer fake "Cube tickets" as an incentive. I really, really like Cube, but the cost is prohibitive, especially considering the fake prizes and continued expense to play regardless of how well I finish a tournament. I've pretty much sworn it off as it is now and very much regret that I'm missing out on the new versions of Cube that come along, Holiday Cube, etc.
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5 months ago  ::  Dec 20, 2012 - 4:00AM #4
WBurgess
Date Joined: Jun 29, 2004
Posts: 278
I'll only comment on 2 areas, I have have given alot of feedback elsewhere (forums, feedback form, survey etc)

Collection screen.

I get that this is a little better for building decks etc, but this is mean to be a collectible card game. I can't be alone in that I often look through the collection screen, looking through cards I own, set by set getting ideas for decks etc. The new collection screen basically makes this impossible, all your cards are just lumped there in one big pile, no separation, just a big list to scroll through. I don't feel like I own a MTG card collection online anymore.

Trying to go through and work out what I want to make tradable is also more difficult, if I choose to show just mythics, I end up with a pile of cards including such powerful mythics as Kird Ape, and  Murmuring Bosk. I can add more filters to just look at RTR cards, but it feels like we have gone from "Here is a basic view, use the filters if you want" to "Here is a giant pile of card pictures, feel free to add 20 filters so you can attempt to get something close to the functionality you used to have" all because apparently people didn't use the filters much in the past.

I personally sort all my paper cards in binders, sorted by sets. Having this option online helped me justify mentally having to pay the exact same price for both (for boosters that is), that may sound dumb, but looking at my collection from V3 to V4 feels like I have gone from "Here is my collection of MTG cards" to "Here is a giant list of cards we will let you put into decks", it might not seem like much but it literally feels like V3 is showing MY cards, and V4 is showing the cards the system is lending me.

Targeting.

While I can agree that the arrows in V3 might have sometimes appeared confusing, I honestly think removing them entirely is a mistake. On a simple board, it's not too hard to tell what something is targeting in the beta, however, it still does require that *little* bit of extra mental work to scan the battle field looking for the 'targeting reticle' on a card to know what something is targeting. Make the board state more complex, and add in stuff that has multiple or up to X targets, and it compounds, now you have to look all over the place for the target and you can literally miss that something is being targeted. Where with the arrows, it was a simple process of follow the arrow to see what is at the end! Hell, DOTP is meant to be the base level product to get new players into the game, and they use arrows there so it can't be *that* confusing.
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5 months ago  ::  Dec 20, 2012 - 4:23AM #5
tapionminoshi
Date Joined: Sep 28, 2004
Posts: 26
I started playing MTGO in Invasion block drafts, and quickly moved on to constructed events. In my opinion, the program has become less user-friendly in every single incarnation. This newest wide beta is by far the worst. I'm not one to complain on message boards, but seriously, the program itself and it's prize payouts have progressively gotten worse for a decade. I don't understand how it's even possible.
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5 months ago  ::  Dec 20, 2012 - 5:16AM #6
MrTypo
Date Joined: Aug 6, 2007
Posts: 11
I do not understand why you guys are not taking a scan version of the cards, just like other TCG online games? Instead you try to recreate the cards and they look so bad.. I would love to look at my collection and see the real cards, not bugged designed cards..
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5 months ago  ::  Dec 20, 2012 - 5:57AM #7
lathspel
  • Jawsome UnCon Prizewinner
Date Joined: Sep 22, 2003
Posts: 881
I'm really enjoying this week of MTGO design articles, as a software engineer I love this kind of stuff.  These screens are definitely tough to design when you consider all the things that matter.

I will say that the mockup of the screens actually looked more usable to me than the real screen examples.  I think this is for two reasons:
 - the black background of the beta client makes everything look heavier
 - the MTGO fantasy-style widgets also make everything look heavier, plus they provide more distraction to the eye, making it hard to find what you want.

The bottom line is that the real screenshot looks way more cluttered than the mockup, even though the mockup is littered with little indicators and comments.  Those problems are there with the V3 client as well, but I was used to it enough that it didn't slow me down.  Now that I'm looking at the Beta client I'm noticing them again.

I haven't been following the progress of beta closely.  Maybe the beta client is skinnable, and the problem is already solved.
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5 months ago  ::  Dec 20, 2012 - 6:11AM #8
AlexaM
Date Joined: Jul 23, 2009
Posts: 283
I really don't understand the opposition to a "binder view" of one's collection. It may be that the new view is more intuitive for building decks, but it's definitely not intuitive. Nor is it, to use a Maro word, "grokkable." It seems like something that makes sense to the people developing the UI.

But as I'm sure you're aware, what makes sense to a software developer doesn't necessarily make sense to the end user. If I'm playing a card game, a binder of cards makes sense to me -- it looks like the sort of thing I would have. But a bunch of individual pictures doesn't have that kind of mental image for me.

I may be the only one, but I also really miss the tables view that v2(.5? I think that's what it was) had. That felt very nice for casual play -- it meant envisioning sitting down and playing a card game with someone, and it was evocative. Now there are no options but lists.  There are some skins and I like what they look like much better than V3 and even V2, but they don't make me feel like I'm hanging out. That's okay if I'm in tournament mode, I guess, but when I want fun? Lists aren't fun. (Sorry, I'm not Azorius.)

I know there were early concept screens of the table view, so I know it was planned for and scrapped. I doubt it will come back, so I'm not trying to beat a dead horse. Except that I kind of am, but it's not about needing tables -- it's about missing flavor, and wanting it back. I play casually on MTGO far less than I did in the days of V2. Part of that's a shift in my preferences, but part of it is that when I fire up a program full of nothing but lists of games, cards, and statistics -- well, it's not a place to just show up and hang, it's a place to do something. So I end up in TP testing, or in tournaments.

Which is all fine -- I wouldn't play in tournaments if I disliked it. But I think the game's ambiance is part of why I don't just fire it up because I feel like playing Magic.

It feels like the people developing this game are thinking about all the math and presenting something that feels -- mathy, nerdy, "for the intelligent only"-ey. "This is for geeks!" is totally fine, and I'm not dissing math or meaning to belittle all the work you've clearly done and are clearly intending to do. But even geeks who love buttons, I think, begin to notice when there's no flavor.

And, well, while I'm a competitive player and all, a big part of Magic is the flavor.

Stop giving us the lists you're proud to make work right and expecting us to squee.

Give us something where we feel like we're basking in Magic, not drowning in buttons and modes and toggles, and I think you'll see much more positive responses.
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5 months ago  ::  Dec 20, 2012 - 6:32AM #9
Cervantez
Date Joined: Nov 5, 2005
Posts: 115
Overall I really enjoyed reading this article cause it gives us some overview of what's being done with our feedback and why some choices were made in the first place. I gives me a total different look at the beta and I now understand why some choices were made.

The 2 comments made by WBurgess are also my two main concerns (long term). I mean lag and slowdown is #1 concern atm cause that makes the whole program unfun, but that'll probably be fixed before official release.

The stack and targeting feel really off on the beta client and has been since the beginning. All we can do is points out again and again we want our arrows back and hope you'll change it back.

In the article some nice advantages of the beta client are pointed out and these are real benefits. But I never really noticed them because I just hate the look of the collection/deckbuilding tab and everytime I just give up after 5 minutes. Therefore I never noticed the advancements made over V3.
Like WBurgess said, instead of having a collection overview that you can sort to your liking, we now have a pile of cards that you have to sort to get anywhere.


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5 months ago  ::  Dec 20, 2012 - 7:12AM #10
Moonspell
Date Joined: Feb 1, 2008
Posts: 18

Dec 20, 2012 -- 4:00AM, WBurgess wrote:

I'll only comment on 2 areas, I have have given alot of feedback elsewhere (forums, feedback form, survey etc)

Collection screen.

I get that this is a little better for building decks etc, but this is mean to be a collectible card game. I can't be alone in that I often look through the collection screen, looking through cards I own, set by set getting ideas for decks etc. The new collection screen basically makes this impossible, all your cards are just lumped there in one big pile, no separation, just a big list to scroll through. I don't feel like I own a MTG card collection online anymore.




I agree totally and no you are not the only one looking through your collection.  I look at my collection because I like to see what I have won.  It brings a feeling of acomplishment because I am primarily a limited player and roughly half (probably less) of the cards in my collection I have gained by prize payouts in limited events.  I like it when I am flipping pages and I see that foil mythic and remember the game that I won the 8 man queue with it.  Or the time I opened six rares in 4 pack sealed pool and completely dominated.  You can't just flip pages to appreciate the cards we own.  Now you have to build a deck to appreciate them.

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