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5 years ago ::
Sep 05, 2008 - 10:33AM
#21
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Date Joined:
Nov 30, 2005
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Angry Tapper, I would disagree with many of the things you suggest for banning as your adjustments to Iceage's list are not consistent.
For example, if you are going to ban:
Eladamri's Call
Enlightened Tutor
Idyllic Tutor
Sterling Grove
Worldly Tutor
And you are not banning:
Buried Alive
Entomb
Fabricate
Merchant Scroll
Mystical Teachings
Quiet Speculation
Supply/Demand
Then you are just showing blatant bias towards certain cards and not others of the same limited tutor variety. Not to mention that many of those selected for banning are far weaker than many of the ones you are leaving restricted.
Other Tutors such as: Diabolic Intent, Diabolic Tutor, Demonic Collusion, and Planar Portal are costed such that their inclusion as restricted cards should not be a problem. Diabolic Intent has the cost of casting a creature and then sacrificing that creature, Diabolic Tutor is just too expensive, Demonic Collusion is even more expensive and requires you to first search up something like life from the loam to abuse meaning that you spend BBBB6 or 10 mana before getting your first actual card in this case. Then Planar portal is even worse. Planar Portal is 12 mana before you get a card to use. Mind Slaver is far better for 2 mana cheaper. I wouldn't even say Planar Portal is even abusive until you search up 3-4 cards and that is 24-30 mana! You should be winning at this point. It shouldn't matter what card you are using.
I think the most debatable card for banning or restricted is Congregation at Dawn. It should definitely be restricted, but as Iceage said it is easily disruptable and you have to wait three turns to get all three creatures outside extra card drawing.
I really like the philosophy behind Icaeage's list. Speaking specifically about the tutors, I like the idea of banning the easy to use repeatable tutor's like Bringer of the Black Dawn and Liliana, which don't require extra mana or Wild research, which is far too mana efficient, and also banning the extremely efficient ones like Vampiric Tutor and Imperial Seal. Then restricting all of the rest of the nonland limited tutors or higher CC anything tutors.
Combo has a place in prismatic and needs tutors to be viable. Currently it is near unplayable. Also deck revolving around specific cards need to be viable to allow for greater diversity and tutors need to exist for those decks to find those cards. Without tutors the only competitive decks end up being very general such as generic aggro, generic control, and generic mid-range. You lose many creative options such as a control deck built around salvaging station for instance because now there is no way to reliably find it. There are many other similar build around me cards that are just not viable for use without a reliable amount of tutors.
On the topic of wishes. I believe Iceage is correct. With them restricted it eliminates the reason for them being banned. Acting as copies 5-7 (or 4-7 depending on technicality) of a card in your deck. They then become good for utility the same way the something like vindicate is good for utility, except that you have to spend some extra mana for that utility.
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5 years ago ::
Sep 05, 2008 - 10:49AM
#22
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I've added some comments to the most recent list (below):
A note on sideboards. I believe side boards should be 0 or 60 cards. 60 makes sense as a proportion of your deck equivalent to 15 cards in a 60 card deck. Actually having a 60 card sideboard may open up more cards to play as you will have a lot more tools to bring in against combo or aggro or control (depending on your deck choice)
Banned - 13
Battle of Wits
Bribery - Restricted at best; maybe unrestricted
Bringer of the Black Dawn - see Liliana
Demonic Consultation - I might like to see tutors of this power restricted instead of banned. I'd like to be able to play with as may cards as possible.
Gifts Ungiven
Imperial Seal - see demonic consultation
Insidious Dreams
Liliana Vess - I would be OK with trying this and black bringer as restricted
Mystical Tutor - see demonic consultation
Sundering Titan
Tooth and Nail
Upheaval - this card should NOT have been banned. Its a perfectly fair card (at least as fair as rude awakening which you don't have on your list). It gives the more controlling decks a strategy. Our entire format right now is aggro or mid range. Upheaval (and rude awakening) give some end game teeth to control.
Vampiric Tutor - see demonic consultation
Wild Research
Resritcted - 38
Beseech the Queen - Close call on this one; but I guess.
Life From the Loam
Detritivore
Enduring Ideal
Flash
Mana Crypt
Rude Awakening - should not be restricted nor banned. CONTROL needs help
Skullclamp
Buried Alive
Burning Wish
Congregation at Dawn
Cunning Wish
Diabolic Intent
Diabolic Tutor
Demonic Collusion
Doomsday - personally I wouldn't bother. If doomsday combo is OK in the environment then might as well let them run all 4. Otherwise just ban it if Doomsday turns out to be too good. Its a one card combo so not much use in restricting it with all the tutors around.
Eladamri's Call
Enlightened Tutor
Entomb
Fabricate
Glittering Wish
Grindstone (preemptive restriction) - Can we at least SEE if painter/grindstone is an issue? Its slower to draw/tutor in to the combo than in vintage. I want to make sure combo has some choices.
Idyllic Tutor
Living Wish
Merchant Scroll
Mystical Teachings
Personal Tutor
Protean Hulk
Planar Portal - unrestrict. this doesn't see any play as is
Primal Command
Quiet Speculation - this is not restricted in 5-color ...
Sterling Grove
Summoner's Pact
Supply/Demand
Tolaria West
Worldly Tutor
World Gouger Dragon - huh? can't see any reason for this. Combo should have options and this is another one
Thats my 2c
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5 years ago ::
Sep 05, 2008 - 1:00PM
#23
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Date Joined:
Jul 18, 2006
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The list you show would make combo crazy.
As far as some for your comments my list is not based on making the perfect tournament format, I don't think Prismatic will ever be that. As far as Upheaval and Rude Awakening. The problem with both cards is mostly casual games. If I can run cards of that power level I will. Upheaval is just an increadibly annoying card that also happens to be very powerful. In casual Prismatic it is just broken.
Wake in play, float 20 mana, cast Upheaval gg.
Rude Awakening is also powerful but I don't think on the same level. It also doesn't have the not fun bounce everything discard 10 cards factor.
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5 years ago ::
Sep 05, 2008 - 1:10PM
#24
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The list you show would make combo crazy.
As far as some for your comments my list is not based on making the perfect tournament format, I don't think Prismatic will ever be that. As far as Upheaval and Rude Awakening. The problem with both cards is mostly casual games. If I can run cards of that power level I will. Upheaval is just an increadibly annoying card that also happens to be very powerful. In casual Prismatic it is just broken.
Wake in play, float 20 mana, cast Upheaval gg.
Rude Awakening is also powerful but I don't think on the same level. It also doesn't have the not fun bounce everything discard 10 cards factor.
Combo Crazy = OK, lets give it a try here. Aren't you sick to death of aggro.dec (or at best mid-range-aggro.dec) yet? I don't want combo to be *the* deck, but isn't it supposed to be viable? If we go to far we can carve it back.
Re: Upheaval and Rude - people who want casual games should either specify that in the description or play prismatic singleton (or both, like I do when I want a fun game with my singleton invasion block only deck).
There is nothing casual about getting run over by aggro prismatic either - at least give some of the higher mana decks more tools.
It seems you're starting to make some of the same arguments that the people who messed up the B&R list did in the first place - that prismatic is supposed to be "fun and casual" - but that is an undefinable term. Fun and casual mean different things to different players.
Prismatic needs to be a HEALTHY format first and foremost, and neutering strict control and combo (because they're "unfun") does not a healthy format make.
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5 years ago ::
Sep 05, 2008 - 1:14PM
#25
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Wake in play, float 20 mana, cast Upheaval gg.
Also not to nitpick but if I had wake in play and floated 20 mana (10 lands?) I would think fireball to the dome might be a better choice
I guess my point is that if you're playing a deck with wake and upheaval once you get a lot of mana in play you likely should win - it means you've survived the aggro rush and combo's attempts to go off.
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5 years ago ::
Sep 05, 2008 - 1:34PM
#26
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Date Joined:
Jul 18, 2006
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PRISMATIC IS A CASUAL FORMAT.
If you're running into a lot of aggro decks is the casual room that is quite odd.
Your recommendation that people wanting a casual format should play Prismatic Singleton is stupid. If someone wanted to play Classic casually should they play Singleton?
As far as Upheaval goes it got banned in Singleton which it was not as good so I think banning it in Prismatic is fine. If you allow one copy there will be decks that run 4 Tog, get one of them then tutor up Upheaval and win.
Maybe this wouldn't be a problem in tournaments but as tournaments for Prismatic don't exist lets focus on what does.
Not to mention that these changes give many new options to control/combo/mid range all of which have done better in events than you imply.
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5 years ago ::
Sep 05, 2008 - 2:05PM
#27
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PRISMATIC IS A CASUAL FORMAT.
THEN WHY ARE THERE PES WITH PRIZES FOR IT? AND POTENTIAL 8 MAN 321 SWISS EVENTS?
If you want to play it with your friends casually and make up your own B&R list thats fine.
CASUAL is not a definition of anything. I think people have proven time and time again that there is way too much interpretation in that word. We need a goal that has a meaningful definition.
HEALTHY (diverse options) or BALANCED (control > combo > aggro > control) are fine choices in the context of magic history. CASUAL is not a basis for anything but someone telling you your deck is not casual and calling your ideas stupid.
In the context of HEALTHY and BALANCED it is important that the 3 basic deck archetypes are represented and the B&R list's sole function is to ensure this balance.
I'm willing to debate card choices on a B&R list that further the HEALTHY and BALANCED goal (and those choices are very debatable), but I'm not going to argue about whether a card is CASUAL or not.
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5 years ago ::
Sep 05, 2008 - 5:58PM
#28
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I've been doing a lot of research on this topic (the evolution of Prismatic), and it WAS a casual format that started to get bannings. Then it became a competitive format and they decided to continue the bannings that were originally intended for a strictly casual format.
Now we have a format that, for lack of a better term, is poorly handled.
Something large needs to happen to the format in one direction or another. Either bring it back to a casual (non-competitive) format, or make the format balanced in a competitive environment. And that means making it so that Combo and Control have the tools and ability to fight against the other decks in the format.
MTGO SVCL - Ask me for help if you're lost or confused!
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5 years ago ::
Sep 06, 2008 - 7:48AM
#29
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Date Joined:
Jul 18, 2006
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THEN WHY ARE THERE PES WITH PRIZES FOR IT? AND POTENTIAL 8 MAN 321 SWISS EVENTS?
If you want to play it with your friends casually and make up your own B&R list thats fine.
CASUAL is not a definition of anything. I think people have proven time and time again that there is way too much interpretation in that word. We need a goal that has a meaningful definition.
HEALTHY (diverse options) or BALANCED (control > combo > aggro > control) are fine choices in the context of magic history. CASUAL is not a basis for anything but someone telling you your deck is not casual and calling your ideas stupid.
In the context of HEALTHY and BALANCED it is important that the 3 basic deck archetypes are represented and the B&R list's sole function is to ensure this balance.
I'm willing to debate card choices on a B&R list that further the HEALTHY and BALANCED goal (and those choices are very debatable), but I'm not going to argue about whether a card is CASUAL or not.
Wait 8 mans and 3-2-1 swiss? Let me know if that ever happens.
Personally I think your list makes Combo>Control, Combo>Aggro. That doesn't seem like a good thing.
And on another note I don't think that Prismatic will ever be perfectly balanced and think it is an awful format if you're looking for the most balanced tournament play possible. I think the &BR should try and make events balanced while also keeping the casual room fun. The casual rooms account for 100% of play for the past however many months.
One thing that I think people should also keep in mind is that 2 card combos in Prismatic are degenerate because people just stick them in control decks. When Flash was legal the last PE with it had a ton of control decks that just said "oops i win." I think combo should be in Prismatic but I don't think it should be as strong as control or aggro. Combo is prismatic is much more random than other formats. In that PE I lost to Flash t2 and let me tell you, that was a fun game. If Prismatic becomes a competitive format again (seems impossible in current state of v3) I think that it should be noted that people (at least all the ones I know) play it for fun. So yeah make it balanced but don't have people lucksacing t2 wins.
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5 years ago ::
Sep 06, 2008 - 9:03AM
#30
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Wait 8 mans and 3-2-1 swiss? Let me know if that ever happens.
Personally I think your list makes Combo>Control, Combo>Aggro. That doesn't seem like a good thing.
And on another note I don't think that Prismatic will ever be perfectly balanced and think it is an awful format if you're looking for the most balanced tournament play possible. I think the &BR should try and make events balanced while also keeping the casual room fun. The casual rooms account for 100% of play for the past however many months.
One thing that I think people should also keep in mind is that 2 card combos in Prismatic are degenerate because people just stick them in control decks. When Flash was legal the last PE with it had a ton of control decks that just said "oops i win." I think combo should be in Prismatic but I don't think it should be as strong as control or aggro. Combo is prismatic is much more random than other formats. In that PE I lost to Flash t2 and let me tell you, that was a fun game. If Prismatic becomes a competitive format again (seems impossible in current state of v3) I think that it should be noted that people (at least all the ones I know) play it for fun. So yeah make it balanced but don't have people lucksacing t2 wins.
I think I agree with your point to some degree that perhaps combo should be ever-so-slightly weaker than it would be in a 60 card deck. Perhaps banning grindstone, doomsday, flash would make sense in an effort to force 3 card combos?
I'm not sure what the appropriate way to do it is; but I don't think we'll ever get to find out if we keep everything that combo would need to work banned as is the current situation.
Another solution which I don't hear much discussion on is the 60 card sideboard. That would really give decks the tools to bring in enough hate to matter if a certain combo or set of cards got out of control.
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