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2 months ago ::
Mar 18, 2013 - 10:57PM
#1
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Date Joined:
Jan 19, 2012
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So I was wondering if using Leng while I have Confinement in play would allow me to discard to the top of my library. I don't think so, considering the discard is a cost, but I'm hoping to be surprised.
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2 months ago ::
Mar 18, 2013 - 11:51PM
#2
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Date Joined:
Aug 19, 2010
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discarding for Solitary Confinement  is part of an effect, not a cost, so Library of Leng  works ... I'm 99% sure of this ... if you want faster (and 100% correct) answer, try the rules Q&A forum. (the place where questions like this should be asked anyways).
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2 months ago ::
Mar 19, 2013 - 12:40AM
#3
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- Volunteer Community Lead
- blame me for the weather
Date Joined:
Feb 27, 2002
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Please follow forum rules. All rules questions belong in Rules Q&A. This is stated clearly at the top of the Cards & Combos forum.Moving to Rules Q&A.
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2 months ago ::
Mar 19, 2013 - 9:17AM
#4
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Date Joined:
Oct 29, 2007
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discarding to Solitary Confinement is both an effect and a cost and because it is an effect you can discard to your top of library via LoL 117.12. Some spells, activated abilities, and triggered abilities read, “[Do something]. If [a player] [does or doesn’t], [effect].” or “[A player] may [do something]. If [that player] [does or doesn’t], [effect].” The action [do something] is a cost, paid when the spell or ability resolves.
117.12a Some spells, activated abilities, and triggered abilities read, “[Do something] unless you [do something else].” This means the same thing as “You may [do something else]. If you don’t,[do something].”
Translated with respect to Solitary Confinement.
[Do something = sacrifice Solitary Confinement] unless you [Do something else = discard a card]
equates to
You may [Do something else = discard a card]. If you don't, [Do something = sacrifice Solitary Confinement].
Discard a card is a COST (see the bolded rule above)
and all of this is an effect of the triggered ability
edited: after realizing I had the answer incorrect.
MtG Rules Advisor &
Goth/Industrial/EBM/Indie/Alternative/80's-Wave DJDJ VortexDCI Certified Rules Advisor from July 14, 2009 to July 14, 2012 DCI #5209514320 Wit found in Rules Q&ARPJesus: "Man, screw the rules, I'll play a game of 2HG Archenemy Planechase Emperor EDH draft yet. Once I figure out the rules for it..." Chaikov: "Of course, casual Magic may be played any way your Pokemon group agrees on..." and "It's not logic. It's Magic!" GainsBanding: "I only play online. The Magic Online shuffler is AWESOME!" Ikegami: "one might think [adult cats] would make excellent tokens. The issue, though, is that they are very hard to exile. They return to the battlefield more often than an undying creature." Astarael7: "Does 121.1 imply that players are supposed to wear their poison counters?" Bimmerbot: "If you move the wrong way and [the poison counters] fall, it's a game rule violation" Helluminatus: "Just remember, if it looks like a duck, smells like a duck, and quacks like a duck, but the oracle text says creature - Bunny , then by god, it's a bunny." MadCow21: "Who are you and what have you done with the real Chaikov?" My Wife's Makeup Artist Page <-- cool stuff - check it out
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2 months ago ::
Mar 19, 2013 - 9:47AM
#5
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- Celestial Teapots are broken!
Date Joined:
Feb 24, 2007
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discarding to Solitary Confinement is both an effect and a cost, so no you can't put the card on top of your library
The conclusion doesn't match the premise. Library of Leng applies any time an effect makes you discard. It is an effect making you discard, so Library of Leng applies.
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2 months ago ::
Mar 19, 2013 - 9:52AM
#6
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Date Joined:
Sep 17, 2005
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discarding to Solitary Confinement is both an effect and a cost, so no you can't put the card on top of your library
The conclusion doesn't match the premise. Library of Leng applies any time an effect makes you discard. It is an effect making you discard, so Library of Leng applies.
Can something be an effect and a cost?
Gatherer says:
You can't use the Library of Leng ability to place a discarded card on top of your library when you discard a card as a cost, because costs aren't effects.
Is that wrong?
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2 months ago ::
Mar 19, 2013 - 9:54AM
#7
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Date Joined:
Jul 28, 2010
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it's a cost as part of an effect if it is just a cost ( Wild Guess  or Compulsion  or cycling) Library of Leng cannot apply
proud member of the 2011 community team
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2 months ago ::
Mar 19, 2013 - 10:10AM
#8
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Date Joined:
Oct 29, 2007
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| 10/4/2004 |
You can't use the Library of Leng ability to place a discarded card on top of your library when you discard a card as a cost, because costs aren't effects. |
| 10/4/2004 |
The ability applies any time a spell or ability has you discard as part of its effect. It does not matter if you or your opponent control the spell or ability. The discard is forced because it is an effect. |
conflicting rulings in this case, however, we know that costs can also be effects so we can discount the first ruling in the conflict because it is erroneous. So yes, you can discard the card to the top of your library because although it is a cost, it is also an effect. (My earlier conclusion was incorrect and has been corrected)
MtG Rules Advisor &
Goth/Industrial/EBM/Indie/Alternative/80's-Wave DJDJ VortexDCI Certified Rules Advisor from July 14, 2009 to July 14, 2012 DCI #5209514320 Wit found in Rules Q&ARPJesus: "Man, screw the rules, I'll play a game of 2HG Archenemy Planechase Emperor EDH draft yet. Once I figure out the rules for it..." Chaikov: "Of course, casual Magic may be played any way your Pokemon group agrees on..." and "It's not logic. It's Magic!" GainsBanding: "I only play online. The Magic Online shuffler is AWESOME!" Ikegami: "one might think [adult cats] would make excellent tokens. The issue, though, is that they are very hard to exile. They return to the battlefield more often than an undying creature." Astarael7: "Does 121.1 imply that players are supposed to wear their poison counters?" Bimmerbot: "If you move the wrong way and [the poison counters] fall, it's a game rule violation" Helluminatus: "Just remember, if it looks like a duck, smells like a duck, and quacks like a duck, but the oracle text says creature - Bunny , then by god, it's a bunny." MadCow21: "Who are you and what have you done with the real Chaikov?" My Wife's Makeup Artist Page <-- cool stuff - check it out
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2 months ago ::
Mar 19, 2013 - 11:26AM
#9
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Date Joined:
Apr 12, 2012
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That's a bit of a problematic ruling around here, where we talk about edge cases daily. However, costs and effects are not normally the same thing. You can discard a card to pump Psychatog  . I'm not sure what to call that other than a cost, and this particular cost, like most costs you'll deal with during a typical game, isn't an effect.
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2 months ago ::
Mar 19, 2013 - 12:50PM
#10
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That's a bit of a problematic ruling around here, where we talk about edge cases daily. However, costs and effects are not normally the same thing. You can discard a card to pump Psychatog . I'm not sure what to call that other than a cost, and this particular cost, like most costs you'll deal with during a typical game, isn't an effect.
Maybe "You can't use the Library of Leng ability to place a discarded card on top of your library when you discard a card as a cost to cast a spell or activate an ability, because such costs aren't effects." based pn the wording of Angel of Jubilation  .
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