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3 months ago ::
Mar 17, 2013 - 4:04AM
#1
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Okay so watching a ruling at SCG in Washington DC was just puzzling to me.
Situtation:
Player A has Hellrider, Boros Elite, and Thalia on board declares an attack. Opponent no response. Player A taps all three to attack, slight pause for a response and the Player B immediately assigns blockers. Player A says "take three from the Hellrider before you assign blockers" Player B calls the judge. The initial judges side with player A saying that Player A never said to assign blockers and that the trigger is on the stack. Player B ask for the head judge, who says "Blockers are already assigned you missed the trigger."
I could be wrong but doesn't Player A have priority on his turn. Player B rushed block to try to miss the trigger.
Please advise...
New and Confused
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3 months ago ::
Mar 17, 2013 - 4:33AM
#2
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Date Joined:
Mar 22, 2009
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Player A taps all three to attack, slight pause for a response and the Player B immediately assigns blockers.
You said it right there: the attacking player passed priority ("pause for a response") after declaring attackers. The only way he could have done that without putting Hellrider's trigger on the stack first is if he missed the trigger.
Declaring attackers is a turn based action that doesnt use the stack, so cannot be responded to. Once you know you are good to start declaring attackers, the next time your opponent gets a chance to do anything is after any triggers have been placed on the stack and after you have passed priority. If they pass priority back the game moves straight to them declaring blockers.
~ Tim
 Reached DCI Rating 1800 on 28/10/11. :D Sig
Show
Not bad. But what happens flavor wise when one kamahl kills the other one?
Zis iz a sign uf deep psychological troma, buried in zer subconscious mind. By keelink himzelf, Kamahl iz physically expressink hiz feelinks uf self-disgust ova hiz desire for hiz muzzer. [/GermanPsychologistVoice]
That makes no sense to me.
If they spelled the ability out on the card in full then it would not be allowed in a mono-black Commander deck, but because they used a keyword to save space it is allowed?
~ Tim
Yup, just like you can have Birds of paradise in a mono green deck but not Noble Hierarch . YAY COLOR IDENTITY 
Is algebra really that difficult?
Survey says yes.
You want to make a milky drink. You squeeze a cow.
I love this description. Like the cows are sponges filled with milk. I can see it all Nick Parks claymation-style with the cow's eyes bugging out momentarily as a giant farmer squeezes it like a squeaky dog toy, and milk shoots out of it.
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3 months ago ::
Mar 17, 2013 - 10:37AM
#3
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Player A taps all three to attack, slight pause for a response and the Player B immediately assigns blockers.
You said it right there: the attacking player passed priority ("pause for a response") after declaring attackers. The only way he could have done that without putting Hellrider's trigger on the stack first is if he missed the trigger.
Declaring attackers is a turn based action that doesnt use the stack, so cannot be responded to. Once you know you are good to start declaring attackers, the next time your opponent gets a chance to do anything is after any triggers have been placed on the stack and after you have passed priority. If they pass priority back the game moves straight to them declaring blockers.
~ Tim
That's not how missed triggers work. A trigger is considered missed once it's owner takes an action past the point where it would have had an observable impact on the game or where it's controller would have had to announce choices for the trigger. A opponent may never cause an opponents trigger to be missed by taking actions and triggers are assumed to be remembered until otherwise indicated. As such passing priority after the trigger would have been put on the stack doesn't cause the trigger to be missed nor does the opponent declaring declaring blockers. If the player A had taken an action after declaring blockers or if A had explicitly announce the end of the phase then the trigger would have been missed, but A didn't so it wasn't.
Now it's still possible that that the head judge made the right call, but if so it would have to have been due to some other factor that we are not aware of. such as if player A acknowledged that it was time for player B to start declaring blockers, in which case he would be acknowledged that play has past the point where the trigger would have resolved or that player A made some other indication that he did not remember the trigger until after B had started declaring blockers.
Relevant Section of the Rules
Show
2.1.
Game Play Error — Missed Trigger
Definition
A triggered ability triggers, but the player controlling the ability doesn’t demonstrate awareness of the trigger’s existence the first time that it would affect the game in a visible fashion. The point by which the player needs to demonstrate this awareness depends on the impact that the trigger would have on the game: •A triggered ability that requires its controller to choose targets (other than 'target opponent') modes, or other choices made when the ability is put onto the stack: The controller must announce those choices before they next pass priority.
•A triggered ability that causes a change in the visible game state (including life totals) or requires a choice upon resolution: The controller must take the appropriate physical action or make it clear what the action taken or choice made is before taking any game actions (such as casting a sorcery spell or explicitly moving to the next step or phase) that can be taken only after the triggered ability should have resolved. Note that casting an instant spell or activating an ability doesn’t mean a triggered ability has been forgotten, as it could still be on the stack.
•A triggered ability that changes the rules of the game: The controller must prevent an opponent from taking any resulting illegal action.
•A triggered ability that affects the game state in non-visible ways: The controller must take physical action or make it clear what the action is the first time the change has an effect on the visible game state.
Once any of the above obligations has been fulfilled, or the trigger has been otherwise acknowledged, further problems are treated as a Game Play Error — Game Rule Violation.
Triggered abilities that do nothing except create delayed triggered abilities automatically resolve without requiring acknowledgment. Awareness of the resulting delayed trigger must be demonstrated at the appropriate point. Triggered abilities that do nothing except create one or more copies of a spell or ability (such as storm or cipher) automatically resolve, but awareness of the resulting objects must be demonstrated using the same requirements as described above (even though the objects may not be triggered abilities).
Players may not cause triggered abilities controlled by an opponent to be missed by taking game actions or otherwise prematurely advancing the game. For example, if a player draws a card during his or her draw step without allowing an opponent to demonstrate awareness of a triggered ability, the controller still has an opportunity to fulfill the appropriate obligation by doing so at that point. The Out-of-Order Sequencing rules (MTR section 4.3) may also be applicable, especially as they relate to batches of actions or resolving items on the stack in an improper order.
If a triggered ability would have no impact on the game, it’s not an infraction to fail to demonstrate awareness of it. For example, if the effect of a triggered ability instructs its controller to sacrifice a creature, a player who controls no creatures isn’t required to demonstrate awareness of the ability.
Examples A. Knight of Infamy (a 2/1 creature with exalted) attacks alone. Its controller says “Take two.” B. A player forgets to remove the final time counter from a suspended spell and then draws a card during his draw step. C. A player casts Azorius Arrester, then forgets its triggered ability by not choosing a target for it. He realizes this only after casting another spell. D. A player forgets to exile the Angel token created by Geist of Saint Traft at end of combat. She realizes the error when declaring blockers during the next turn.
Philosophy
Triggered abilities are common and invisible, so players should not be harshly penalized when forgetting about one. Players are expected to remember their own triggered abilities; intentionally ignoring one may be Unsporting Conduct — Cheating (unless the ability would have no impact on the game as described above). Even if an opponent is involved in the announcement or resolution of the ability, the controller is still responsible for ensuring the opponents make the appropriate choices and take the appropriate actions. Players are not required to point out triggered abilities that they do not control, though they may do so if they wish.
Triggered abilities are assumed to be remembered until otherwise indicated, and the impact on the game state may not be immediately apparent. The opponent’s benefit is in not having to point out triggered abilities, although this does not mean that they can cause triggers to be missed. If an opponent requires information about the precise timing of a triggered ability or needs details about a game object that may be affected by a resolved triggered ability, that player may need to acknowledge that ability’s existence before its controller does.
The controller of a missed triggered ability receives a Warning only if the triggered ability is usually considered detrimental for the controlling player. The current game state is not a factor in determining this, though symmetrical abilities (such as Howling Mine) may be considered usually detrimental or not depending on who is being affected. Whether a Warning is issued or not does not affect any additional remedies that may be applicable. Failure to Maintain Game State penalties are never issued to players who did not control the ability. Judges should not intervene in a missed trigger situation unless they intend to issue a Warning or have reason to suspect that the controller is intentionally missing his or her triggered abilities.
Additional Remedy
If the triggered ability specifies a default action associated with a choice made by the controller (usually "If you don't ..." or "... unless"), resolve it choosing the default option. If the triggered ability is a delayed triggered ability that changes the zone of an object, resolve it. For these two types of abilities, the opponent chooses whether to resolve the ability immediately or at the start of the next phase. These abilities do not expire and should be remedied no matter how much time has passed since they should have triggered.
If the triggered ability creates an effect whose duration has already expired or the ability was missed prior to the current phase in the previous player's turn, instruct the players to continue playing.
If the triggered ability isn’t covered by the previous two paragraphs, the opponent chooses whether the triggered ability is added to the stack. If it is, it’s inserted at the appropriate place on the stack if possible or on the bottom of the stack. No player may make choices involving objects that were not in the appropriate zone or zones when the ability should have triggered. For example, if the ability instructs a player to sacrifice a creature, that player can't sacrifice a creature that wasn't on the battlefield when the ability should have triggered.
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3 months ago ::
Mar 17, 2013 - 10:44AM
#4
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Date Joined:
Mar 22, 2009
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As such passing priority after the trigger would have been put on the stack doesn't cause the trigger to be missed nor does the opponent declaring declaring blockers.
But... it was missed.
It didnt happen when it should have happened, and the game carried on without it happening. So how wasnt it "missed"? It certainly wasnt not-missed.
~ Tim
 Reached DCI Rating 1800 on 28/10/11. :D Sig
Show
Not bad. But what happens flavor wise when one kamahl kills the other one?
Zis iz a sign uf deep psychological troma, buried in zer subconscious mind. By keelink himzelf, Kamahl iz physically expressink hiz feelinks uf self-disgust ova hiz desire for hiz muzzer. [/GermanPsychologistVoice]
That makes no sense to me.
If they spelled the ability out on the card in full then it would not be allowed in a mono-black Commander deck, but because they used a keyword to save space it is allowed?
~ Tim
Yup, just like you can have Birds of paradise in a mono green deck but not Noble Hierarch . YAY COLOR IDENTITY 
Is algebra really that difficult?
Survey says yes.
You want to make a milky drink. You squeeze a cow.
I love this description. Like the cows are sponges filled with milk. I can see it all Nick Parks claymation-style with the cow's eyes bugging out momentarily as a giant farmer squeezes it like a squeaky dog toy, and milk shoots out of it.
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3 months ago ::
Mar 17, 2013 - 11:09AM
#5
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Date Joined:
Jan 19, 2003
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But... it was missed.
For it to be a missed trigger, the player with Hellrider needs to perform a game action that can only occur after the resolution of the ability. What game action are you saying he did?
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3 months ago ::
Mar 17, 2013 - 11:21AM
#6
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Date Joined:
Nov 16, 2007
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Player A taps all three to attack, slight pause for a response and the Player B immediately assigns blockers.
You said it right there: the attacking player passed priority ("pause for a response") after declaring attackers.
How is pausing passing priority? He even interrupted his opponent's attempt to claim priority!
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3 months ago ::
Mar 17, 2013 - 11:24AM
#7
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Date Joined:
Jan 19, 2003
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Well, if he was waiting for "response" to the declaration of attackers, that does indeed require a pass or priority. However, passing priority is unremarkable, as you always do that when hellrider's ability triggers.
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3 months ago ::
Mar 17, 2013 - 11:27AM
#8
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Date Joined:
Nov 16, 2007
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Well, if he was waiting for "response" to the declaration of attackers, that does indeed require a pass or priority.
I don't buy that. How can a player tell if his opponent is thinking about his next move or waiting for a response?
However, passing priority is unremarkable, as you always do that when hellrider's ability triggers.
Good point.
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3 months ago ::
Mar 17, 2013 - 11:29AM
#9
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Date Joined:
Jan 19, 2003
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I don't buy that. How can a player tell if his opponent is thinking about his next move or waiting for a response?
I don't know that you can tell that. I just said that IF he was waiting for a response, then priority must have been passed. Again though, passing priority does not mean missing the trigger.
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3 months ago ::
Mar 17, 2013 - 11:49AM
#10
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So the "line" judge sounds like they made the right call and the head judge at the event didn't. I guess SCG really needs to pick better head judges that knows the rules.
More information about the match Player A was a "scrub" and Player B was a PTQ qualifier. I would hope that the PTQ qualifier wouldn't get special rule treatment but from the sounds of it they did.
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