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4 months ago ::
Mar 06, 2013 - 12:24PM
#1
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So I made a thread here recently that taught me that evolve triggers already on the stack will fail to place a +1/+1 counter on an evolve creature if, by the time those triggers resolve, the creature's P/T equals or exceeds the one attempting to evolve it. That leads me to today's question: I have a 1/2 Gyre Sage  on the battlefield when I cast Elvish Archdruid  . Normally, the Archdruid's power of 2 would be enough to evolve the Sage, so the trigger will go onto the stack and wait to resolve. But the Archdruid has a static ability that gives all other Elves +1/+1. Am I correct in assuming that by the time the evolve trigger resolves on the stack, the static +1/+1 bonus will have made the Gyre Sage a 2/3, and therefore unable to evolve off of the Archdruid? Thanks in advance.
To whom it may concern: it's getting really old, being unable to see the top half of anything autocarded in the first post of each thread. Fixplz,kthx.
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4 months ago ::
Mar 06, 2013 - 12:27PM
#2
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Date Joined:
Jun 21, 2006
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So I made a thread here recently that taught me that evolve triggers already on the stack will fail to place a +1/+1 counter on an evolve creature if, by the time those triggers resolve, the creature's P/T equals or exceeds the one attempting to evolve it. That leads me to today's question:
I have a 1/2 Gyre Sage on the battlefield when I cast Elvish Archdruid . Normally, the Archdruid's power of 2 would be enough to evolve the Sage, so the trigger will go onto the stack and wait to resolve. But the Archdruid has a static ability that gives all other Elves +1/+1. Am I correct in assuming that by the time the evolve trigger resolves on the stack, the static +1/+1 bonus will have made the Gyre Sage a 2/3, and therefore unable to evolve off of the Archdruid?
Thanks in advance.
Forget it: Evolve won't even trigger.
«Dystocracy : A system of government in which corrupt leadership colludes with dishonest bankers and greedy elites in order to ensure that productive members of society –people who actually do useful work- bear the greatest share of taxes while gaining the least benefit possible.»
Sounds familiar?
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4 months ago ::
Mar 06, 2013 - 12:35PM
#3
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Date Joined:
Jul 28, 2010
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when Evolve sees if it should trigger it sees the Gyre Sage as 2/3 and the new creature as 2/2 it won't trigger at all
proud member of the 2011 community team
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4 months ago ::
Mar 06, 2013 - 1:30PM
#4
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Gotcha. I thought the Archdruid entering would trigger Evolve before the static bonus kicked in. Thanks, guys.
To whom it may concern: it's getting really old, being unable to see the top half of anything autocarded in the first post of each thread. Fixplz,kthx.
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4 months ago ::
Mar 06, 2013 - 1:34PM
#5
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Date Joined:
Jul 28, 2010
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if you want to know more about this interaction read up on the "intervening if-clause"
proud member of the 2011 community team
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4 months ago ::
Mar 06, 2013 - 7:13PM
#6
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Date Joined:
Jun 21, 2006
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Actually, the if-clause (rule 603.4) is what would keep Evolve from resolving, assuming it triggered.
What keeps it from triggering are rules 603.6b & d:
603.6b Continuous effects that modify characteristics of a permanent do so the moment the permanent is on the battlefield (and not before then). The permanent is never on the battlefield with its unmodified characteristics...
603.6d Normally, objects that exist immediately after an event are checked to see if the event matched any trigger conditions...
«Dystocracy : A system of government in which corrupt leadership colludes with dishonest bankers and greedy elites in order to ensure that productive members of society –people who actually do useful work- bear the greatest share of taxes while gaining the least benefit possible.»
Sounds familiar?
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4 months ago ::
Mar 06, 2013 - 7:15PM
#7
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Date Joined:
Sep 17, 2005
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Actually, the if-clause (rule 603.4) is what would keep Evolve from resolving, assuming it triggered.
What keeps it from triggering are rules 603.6b & d:
603.6b Continuous effects that modify characteristics of a permanent do so the moment the permanent is on the battlefield (and not before then). The permanent is never on the battlefield with its unmodified characteristics...
603.6d Normally, objects that exist immediately after an event are checked to see if the event matched any trigger conditions...
603.4 also says it does not trigger, so there's nothing wrong with Enigma's answer
603.4. A triggered ability may read “When/Whenever/At [trigger event], if [condition], [effect].” When the trigger event occurs, the ability checks whether the stated condition is true. The ability triggers only if it is; [...]
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4 months ago ::
Mar 07, 2013 - 11:04AM
#8
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Date Joined:
Jun 21, 2006
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You're missing my point: I never said Enigma256's answer was wrong. (in fact, I can't even recall Enigma ever being wrong) But the answer was incomplete. Insufficient, actually. The OP correctly suspected that Evolve wouldn't be able to resolve and Enigma correctly pointed to the if-clause rule... ... if it ever triggered! 603.4 also says it does not trigger
I'm afraid not.
See, the OP's unsuspected mistake was to assume Evolve actually triggered, and 603.4 cannot help in dispelling this incorrect assumption, because the real question is «did the trigger event occur?»
Rule 603.6d is required to understand why the trigger doesn't happen, as it it required to understand why it WILL trigger if I play/resolve Tanglebloom  while March of the Machines  is on the Field, for example.
Only 603.6d tells us to look at objects AFTER they entered the Field to decide if Evolve triggers, and not to care about how they looked on the Stack.
«Dystocracy : A system of government in which corrupt leadership colludes with dishonest bankers and greedy elites in order to ensure that productive members of society –people who actually do useful work- bear the greatest share of taxes while gaining the least benefit possible.»
Sounds familiar?
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