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3 months ago ::
Mar 06, 2013 - 2:14AM
#1
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Date Joined:
Jul 15, 2011
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the target for Simic Manipulator  's activated ability is "target creature with power less than or equal to the number of +1/+1 counters removed in this way". but i choose targets before removing +1/+1 counters from Simic Manipulator (ie you choose targets before paying for costs). so how can i ever activate the ability targetting anything other than a creature with 0 power? --- note, for reference, here is the cranialinsertion question that made me think of my question:
Q: I took a Simic Manipulator with an Act of Treason and want to keep it forever. It has five counters on it now. How many do I have to remove to keep it?
A: Aha, this is a tricky one; intuitively, it seems like you should be able to remove three counters, and steal the now-2-power Simic Manipulator. Sadly, intuition is less reliable than most people would
intuit.
It comes down to the order of operations for activating the ability -
1) Decide how many counters to remove
2) Pick a creature with that much power or less
3) Remove the counters.
So the Manipulator doesn't actually get smaller until after the target has been chosen! The upshot is, it doesn't matter how many counters Simic Manipulator has on it: To steal a Simic Manipulator, you have to remove counters equal to or greater than the Simic Manipulator's power. In other words: all of them.
(www.cranialinsertion.com/article/771)
the article says that that step 1) is to Decide how many counters to remove. but when looking at the comprehensive rules on Casting a Spell and Activating Activated Abilities, i can't see the rules saying anything of that sort.
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3 months ago ::
Mar 06, 2013 - 2:21AM
#2
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Date Joined:
Oct 10, 2011
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I found this thread on it: forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t...I guess "remove one or more" is treated the same as choosing X.
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3 months ago ::
Mar 06, 2013 - 2:30AM
#3
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Date Joined:
Jul 15, 2011
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thanks for that thread! that thread bolded the following sentence: === If the spell has a variable cost that will be paid as it's being cast (such as an {X} in its mana cost; see rule 107.3), the player announces the value of that variable === so i guess it sort of makes sense that "remove one or more +1/+1 counters from Simic Manipulator" is a variable cost. still, i'm bothered by the wording of "target creature with power less than or equal to the number of +1/+1 counters removed in this way", because at the time you choose a target, you haven't removed any +1/+1 counters; you've merely chosen how many you want to remove! but maybe i ought to let this inconsistency slide; writing out "target creature with power less than or equal to the number of +1/+1 counters chosen to be removed in this way", though more technically correct, would be more confusing to the average Magic player. edit: or in the thread you linked to, the original poster had an even better solution; one that is technically correct AND that is intuitively clear (although admittedly functionally different):
To me, the proper wording would have to be: "Gain control of target creature if its power is less than or equal to the number of counters removed this way."
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3 months ago ::
Mar 06, 2013 - 2:31AM
#4
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Date Joined:
Mar 12, 2011
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I think 601.2b covers this (the rules for activating abilities being annalogous to casting spells):. Having to pay "remove one or more +1/+1 counters" is a variable cost. Those are not limited to be represented by a X, Y or such.
601.2b If the spell is modal the player announces the mode choice (see rule 700.2). If the player wishes to splice any cards onto the spell (see rule 702.45), he or she reveals those cards in his or her hand. If the spell has alternative or additional costs that will be paid as it’s being cast such as buyback, kicker, or convoke costs (see rules 117.8 and 117.9), the player announces his or her intentions to pay any or all of those costs (see rule 601.2e). A player can’t apply two alternative methods of casting or two alternative costs to a single spell. If the spell has a variable cost that will be paid as it’s being cast (such as an {X} in its mana cost; see rule 107.3), the player announces the value of that variable. If a cost that will be paid as the spell is being cast includes hybrid mana symbols, the player announces the nonhybrid equivalent cost he or she intends to pay. If a cost that will be paid as the spell is being cast includes Phyrexian mana symbols, the player announces whether he or she intends to pay 2 life or the corresponding colored mana cost for each of those symbols. Previously made choices (such as choosing to cast a spell with flashback from a graveyard or choosing to cast a creature with morph face down) may restrict the player’s options when making these choices.
I'm a Rules Advisor now  "Simple questions" usually need rather complex answers, while complex questions often come down to no more than a simple "yes" or "no". Some of my favorite Flavor texts:
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3 months ago ::
Mar 06, 2013 - 2:33AM
#5
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Date Joined:
Mar 12, 2011
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Once you make a choice during casting/activating, you have to follow it through. Once you choose to remove 2 counters, you have to remove two counters if you can, when the time comes to pay. If you can't, the game rewinds to right before you started the process of casting/activating.
I'm a Rules Advisor now "Simple questions" usually need rather complex answers, while complex questions often come down to no more than a simple "yes" or "no". Some of my favorite Flavor texts:
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