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Switch to Forum Live View Multiple simultaneous evolve triggers.
3 months ago  ::  Mar 05, 2013 - 6:08AM #1
TzarChasm
Date Joined: Jun 3, 2012
Posts: 391
I've got a 3/3 Experiment One and a 3/4 Cloudfin Raptor on the battlefield along with Parallel Lives when I attack with Geist of Saint Traft , which puts two 4/4 flying Angel creature tokens onto the battlefield. If I'm correct, the Angels don't enter simultaneously: Geist's ability triggers first and creates the attacking token, which itself then triggers both Parallel Lives and both other creatures' evolution.

I opt to put both evolve triggers on the stack first, "topped" by the enchantment's, which resolves first and creates a second 4/4 Angel, which also triggers both Experiment One's and Cloudfin Raptor's evolution.  Since the first round of evolve triggers haven't yet resolved and my creatures are still a 3/3 and a 3/4, I'm able to put these two triggers on the stack and let all four resolve in order, aren't I?  It seems to me that even though by the time the second set resolve the creatures will already be a 4/4 and a 4/5, the important thing is that evolve triggered before their P/T would have precluded it.

Thanks in advance. 
To whom it may concern: it's getting really old, being unable to see the top half of anything autocarded in the first post of each thread.  Fixplz,kthx.
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3 months ago  ::  Mar 05, 2013 - 6:10AM #2
TzarChasm
Date Joined: Jun 3, 2012
Posts: 391
Edit: Oops, I guess Parallel Lives isn't a triggered ability, but a replacement effect.  How does this affect my scenario?  Is it still possible to double up on evolve triggers before they start resolving?
To whom it may concern: it's getting really old, being unable to see the top half of anything autocarded in the first post of each thread.  Fixplz,kthx.
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3 months ago  ::  Mar 05, 2013 - 6:12AM #3
ikegami
Date Joined: Nov 16, 2007
Posts: 2,231

Mar 5, 2013 -- 6:08AM, TzarChasm wrote:

I've got a 3/3 Experiment One and a 3/4 Cloudfin Raptor on the battlefield along with Parallel Lives when I attack with Geist of Saint Traft , which puts two 4/4 flying Angel creature tokens onto the battlefield. If I'm correct, the Angels don't enter simultaneously: Geist's ability triggers first and creates the attacking token, which itself then triggers both Parallel Lives and both other creatures' evolution.


That's not correct. Parallel Lives does not have a triggered abilility. It has a static ability creating a replacement effect causing the Geist to place two Angels on the 'field (simultaneously).

When this happens, both evolve abilities trigger twice, and all four are placed on the stack in the order you choose.

Say you put Experiment One's triggers first, and Cloudfin Raptor's second.

  1. Cloudfin Raptor's second triggered ability resolves: Cloudfin Raptor gets a +1/+1 counter (4/5).
  2. Cloudfin Raptor's first triggered ability is removed from the stack as it would resolve.
  3. Experiment One's second triggered ability resolves: Experiment One gets a +1/+1 counter (4/4).
  4. Experiment One's first triggered ability is removed from the stack as it would resolve.

Other orders lead to the same results.

Upd: Oops, I mssed up. Fixed
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3 months ago  ::  Mar 05, 2013 - 6:14AM #4
TzarChasm
Date Joined: Jun 3, 2012
Posts: 391
Okay, so I was wrong about the enchantment (initially) but my overall impression was correct.  What matters is P/T levels at the time of the trigger—not how many happen at once, or what those levels will be after any given trigger resolves.  Thank you.
To whom it may concern: it's getting really old, being unable to see the top half of anything autocarded in the first post of each thread.  Fixplz,kthx.
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3 months ago  ::  Mar 05, 2013 - 6:14AM #5
Kenjiblade
Date Joined: May 6, 2011
Posts: 473
Parallel Lives does not have a triggered ability -- it has a replacement effect which affects the number of tokens a given effect puts onto the battlefield.  Thus, if you control Parallel Lives , then your Geist of Saint Traft will put two 4/4 white Angel tokens with flying onto the battlefield tapped and attacking.

This means that the two Angel tokens will cause each of your creatures with evolve to trigger twice.  However:

702.98a Evolve is a triggered ability. “Evolve” means “Whenever a creature enters the battlefield
under your control, if that creature’s power is greater than this creature’s power and/or that
creature’s toughness is greater than this creature’s toughness, put a +1/+1 counter on this
creature.”




And:


603.4. A triggered ability may read “When/Whenever/At [trigger event], if [condition], [effect].” When
the trigger event occurs, the ability checks whether the stated condition is true. The ability triggers
only if it is; otherwise it does nothing. If the ability triggers, it checks the stated condition again as it
resolves. If the condition isn’t true at that time, the ability is removed from the stack and does
nothing. Note that this mirrors the check for legal targets. This rule is referred to as the “intervening
‘if’ clause” rule. (The word “if” has only its normal English meaning anywhere else in the text of a
card; this rule only applies to an “if” that immediately follows a trigger condition.)




In other words, evolve has an intervening 'if' clause, which prevents it from resolving if the condition is no longer true when it tries to resolve. 

So, to answer your original scenario: you'll end up with an Experiment One with stats of 4/4, and a Cloudfin Raptor with stats of 4/5.  The evolve triggers for each of them won't resolve a second time, since the Angel token's power is no longer greater than their power, nor is its toughness greater than their toughness

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3 months ago  ::  Mar 05, 2013 - 6:16AM #6
rezzahan
Date Joined: Mar 12, 2011
Posts: 4,761
Both Angels enter the  battlefield at the same time, triggering the evolve ability of both your creatures, twice (for a total of 4 triggers). The second of each will fail to do anything, though, when it resolves, because the condition is no longer true due to the additional +1/+1 counter already placed on them. You can still get the second counter for each of your evolvers, if you raise the triggering angel's power/toughness in response or by lowering your evolvers' power/toughness, so that the condition will be true again.
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3 months ago  ::  Mar 05, 2013 - 6:19AM #7
ikegami
Date Joined: Nov 16, 2007
Posts: 2,231

Mar 5, 2013 -- 6:14AM, TzarChasm wrote:

Okay, so I was wrong about the enchantment (initially) but my overall impression was correct. What matters is P/T levels at the time of the trigger—not how many happen at once, or what those levels will be after any given trigger resolves. Thank you.


Both, like target checks.

603.4. A triggered ability may read “When/Whenever/At [trigger event], if [condition], [effect].” When the trigger event occurs, the ability checks whether the stated condition is true. The ability triggers only if it is; otherwise it does nothing. If the ability triggers, it checks the stated condition again as it resolves. If the condition isn’t true at that time, the ability is removed from the stack and does nothing. Note that this mirrors the check for legal targets. This rule is referred to as the “intervening ‘if’ clause” rule. (The word “if” has only its normal English meaning anywhere else in the text of a card; this rule only applies to an “if” that immediately follows a trigger condition.)


See my original post for how this applies.

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3 months ago  ::  Mar 05, 2013 - 6:37AM #8
TzarChasm
Date Joined: Jun 3, 2012
Posts: 391
Thanks, guys.  Sorry about my ignorance.  That's kind of disappointing to learn, as I was tinkering with the idea of making a Bant deck utilizing Geist to buff evolvers.  Probably wouldn't have panned out well, anyway.
To whom it may concern: it's getting really old, being unable to see the top half of anything autocarded in the first post of each thread.  Fixplz,kthx.
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