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3 months ago ::
Mar 05, 2013 - 2:59PM
#31
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Date Joined:
Mar 30, 2011
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Sure, that works... If you ask about the triggers and he doesn't acknowledge all of them, then it would be pretty clear that he missed one of them. In the majority of cases, the player will just say "No, it's a 5/5. Stop that." 
Level 2 DCI Judge
Orange, CA
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3 months ago ::
Mar 05, 2013 - 11:45PM
#32
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Date Joined:
Jul 15, 2011
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True. I wasn't trying to imply that one of the players was attempting to manipulate the rules in this case. It was more intended to be a caution to avoid approaching the judge with the attitude that your opponent is definitely wrong because of tournament rule such and such. My observation is that judges interpret said behavior as "smart alecky," and will tend to side with the other guy.
oh, man, more missed triggers stuff involving the change to the Regular REL.
i don't understand this! so if the tournnament rules about missed triggers at the Regular REL has changed, even in a way that i think promotes unfriendly gaming environments, are you saying that i'm not allowed to TAKE ADVANTAGE of that rule to try to get an advantage? because people take advantage of Magic Rules all the time to get an advantage, and judges at Regular REL don't penalize them for that.
` are you saying, now, that Tournament Rules aren't /really/ the rules that you abide by -- ie that if my opponent forgot their mandatory triggers (that don't involve a physical change to game state), that i actually have to remind them of it, even though the Tournament Rules seem to say otherwise?
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3 months ago ::
Mar 06, 2013 - 5:59AM
#33
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Date Joined:
Apr 12, 2012
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This is the introduction to the Infraction Procedure Guide, in which missed triggers are defined:
The Magic™ Infraction Procedure Guide provides judges the appropriate penalties and procedures to handle rules violations that occur during a tournament held at Competitive or Professional Rules Enforcement Level (REL), as well as the underlying philosophy that guides their implementation. It exists to protect players from potential misconduct and to protect the integrity of the tournament itself. Rules violations usually require a penalty or they are unenforceable. Tournaments run at Regular REL should use the Judging at Regular REL document.
(Emphasis mine.)
So yes. These rules are not really the rules by which I abide. I certainly would abide them, were I ever to play in a Competitive or Professional environment. There is no mention of missed triggers at all in the Judging at Regular REL document. The rules surrounding them have not changed -- they never existed at all.
And for completion, here's the rule that applies to a "missed trigger" at Regular REL:
A player makes an in-game error not mentioned above
This will be the bulk of player errors – and we will usually leave the game as is. Fix anything that is currently illegal (like a green enchantment on a Pro:Green creature) and continue the game. However, if the error was caught straight away and backing up is relatively easy, do so. If you do choose to back up it’s important to reverse all the actions – no partial fixes!
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3 months ago ::
Mar 06, 2013 - 6:13AM
#34
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Date Joined:
Jul 15, 2011
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@Bowshewicz: thanks for your post; a nice side effect is that it gives me a small introduction to a few Tournament Rules documents.
There is no mention of missed triggers at all in the Judging at Regular REL document. The rules surrounding them have not changed -- they never existed at all.
but the Missed Trigger update earlier last month seems to contradict what you just said?
===
At Regular REL, there are really only two "rules." You aren't allowed to miss your own triggered abilities, and your opponent isn't required to remind you about them. The second one is a change that was put in at higher RELs a few months ago.
===
(www.wizards.com/magic/magazine/article.a...)
the way i'm reading this, the second rule (opponents not requiring to remind you of your own missed triggers) IS a change to the Regular REL rules?
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3 months ago ::
Mar 06, 2013 - 6:54AM
#35
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I actually meant as the defender I say "Two exalted triggers makes him a 4/4?" so if they just affirm it, they've skipped one of the triggers. The trick would be to get the trigger controller to acknowledge the wrong number of triggers.
I don't think your allowed to do this as claiming that there are only two exalted triggers when there are actually three would be lying about derived information. If you want to see if your opponent has forgotten about an exalted trigger you would have to ask them how many exalted triggers they control, you can't try to mislead them as to how many triggers they control.
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3 months ago ::
Mar 06, 2013 - 8:15AM
#36
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Date Joined:
Apr 12, 2012
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@silpheed: Thanks for linking me to that article. I don't keep up with DailyMTG as well as I could, so I hadn't seen that. I think the best conclusion to draw is that the tournament rules do inform judges at Regular REL, but they don't mandate exact processes. At Regular REL, it'd be kind of harsh to tell a player that his Sigiled Paladin  dies to a centaur because he forgot to (or wasn't aware that he had to) say that exalted trigged. Likewise, it'd be just as harsh to tell the defending player that he just chump blocked with his 3/3. So the doc tells us to take a small step back and let the players make more informed decisions. Still, the players should be cautioned that it's against the rules to intentionally forget a trigger, and that exalted simply doesn't happen at higher levels of play. A warning might be handed out to discourage the attacking player from trying to mislead his opponent in the future, since it's not cool to take advantage of players who are hardly even expected to know what exalted means, let alone recall that his opponent's creature has it. That expectation is reserved for competitive play.
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3 months ago ::
Mar 06, 2013 - 3:00PM
#37
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@silpheed: Thanks for linking me to that article. I don't keep up with DailyMTG as well as I could, so I hadn't seen that. I think the best conclusion to draw is that the tournament rules do inform judges at Regular REL, but they don't mandate exact processes. At Regular REL, it'd be kind of harsh to tell a player that his Sigiled Paladin dies to a centaur because he forgot to (or wasn't aware that he had to) say that exalted trigged. Likewise, it'd be just as harsh to tell the defending player that he just chump blocked with his 3/3. So the doc tells us to take a small step back and let the players make more informed decisions.
Exalted is just assumed to have happened, because it is not optional. You do not have to explicitly announce it before blocks or otherwise. It is even harder to miss it at Regular than it is at Competitive. The only way Sigiled Paladin would die is if its controller said my creature deals 2 damage, your creature lives, and mine dies, and they really had no idea it had exalted. Even if they did that, if the error was caught straight away and a judge was called, it would be backed up.
Toby Elliot also wrote three articles on the changes.
Still, the players should be cautioned that it's against the rules to intentionally forget a trigger, and that exalted simply doesn't happen at higher levels of play. A warning might be handed out to discourage the attacking player from trying to mislead his opponent in the future, since it's not cool to take advantage of players who are hardly even expected to know what exalted means, let alone recall that his opponent's creature has it. That expectation is reserved for competitive play.
Also there are no formal penalties at Regular REL. You should remind the players to play more carefully, but you do not hand out a Warning.
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3 months ago ::
Mar 06, 2013 - 3:09PM
#38
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Date Joined:
Mar 30, 2011
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The Magic Tournament Rules apply at every sanctioned event, regarless of REL. And there was a recent update that modified this section to no longer apply only at Comp/Pro REL, which means it now applies at all sanctioned events. 4.4 Triggered Abilities
Players are expected to remember their own triggered abilities; intentionally ignoring one is Cheating. Players are not required to point out the existence of triggered abilities that they do not control, though they may do so within a turn if they wish.
Triggered abilities are considered to be forgotten by their controller once they have taken an action past the point where the triggered ability would have an observable impact on the game. Triggered abilities that are forgotten are not considered to have gone onto the stack.
So at FNM, you use the JAR instead of the IPG, but you still always use the MTR.
Level 2 DCI Judge
Orange, CA
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3 months ago ::
Mar 06, 2013 - 3:25PM
#39
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The Magic Tournament Rules apply at every sanctioned event, regarless of REL. And there was a recent update that modified this section to no longer apply only at Comp/Pro REL, which means it now applies at all sanctioned events.
I am not sure what you are trying to say, but Regular works differently because of the JAR. The change to Regular is that your opponent is not required to remind you if they don't want to.
From the JAR:
A player has forgotten to take an required game action since the start of their last turn
If the action was optional, assume they chose not to — and no further fix is required. Otherwise, resolve the action now. If several instances of an action have been forgotten, resolve any that have been missed this turn. Any older instances are ignored.
A player makes an in-game error not mentioned above
This will be the bulk of player errors — and we will usually leave the game as is. Fix anything that is currently illegal (like a green enchantment on a Pro:Green creature) and continue the game. However, if the error was caught straight away and backing up is relatively easy, do so. If you do choose to back up it's important to reverse all the actions — no partial fixes!
From Toby Elliot's article:
The rule that says you don't have to remind your opponent about triggered abilities is being extended to Regular REL, bringing the actual rules at all RELs into sync. Of course, the Competitive REL remedy that makes you lose the trigger if you missed it isn't coming along for the ride. In general, if the controller notices it within a reasonable time frame, and it's not too disruptive, we'll resolve the trigger, just like we do now. But, it's all on the controller to remember, now.
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3 months ago ::
Mar 06, 2013 - 3:35PM
#40
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Date Joined:
Mar 30, 2011
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I was responding to the other poster to show that there is a definition for what constitutes a missed trigger at Regular REL, which doesn't appear in the JAR. That's all. It still pretty much functions like any other forgotten "required game action", but resolving a missed trigger even at Regular REL may be too disruptive before you pass the time frame of "since the start of his or her last turn". In most cases, if the controller remembers before then, they get it. In some cases (e.g., Exalted), it certainly doesn't make sense to resolve that trigger once the next turn has started... :P
Level 2 DCI Judge
Orange, CA
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