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3 months ago ::
Mar 05, 2013 - 10:06AM
#21
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Date Joined:
Nov 27, 2006
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Just have a question about a trigger that took place in a tournament.
Player A attacks player B wih an exalted creature 2/2. Play A does not declare how much the damage is for. Player B doesn't declare a blocker and when damage is assigned player A states 6 damage. Player B says you didn't declare exalted so I didnt block.
So the question is does the exalted trigger have to be declared or can the exalted trigger be declared anytime?
The current philosophy of the tournament rules is "assume a trigger has resolved until there is evidence that it hasn't".
Exalted creates a non-visible effect on the game state; it has to be acknowledged by its controller before the change (in this case the change to the attacking creature's p/t) has an effect on the visible game state (in this case on the life total of the defending player, or potentially on the survival of a blocking creature).
If player B is unsure whether or not A remembers Exalted, he has to either play it safe and block, potentially risking one of his creatures, or gamble that A will forget and risk being hit with more damage than he was hoping, or play it really safe and ask A what the creature's p/t are. He does risk alerting A to the trigger if A had actually forgotten, but he'll have to live with that. And if A answers "2/2", then he has missed his trigger and cannot later claim that it silently resolved.
DCI Lvl 2 Judge
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3 months ago ::
Mar 05, 2013 - 10:22AM
#22
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Date Joined:
Feb 10, 2005
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Would it be possible phrase it in a shady way, like "Two exalted triggers makes him a 4/4?" (when there was actually 3 triggers) or something to that affect in an effort to have the controlling player give up one of the triggers if they acknowledge the question?
(I don't endorse such behavior, but would hate for someone to be conned in such a way.)
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3 months ago ::
Mar 05, 2013 - 10:27AM
#23
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Date Joined:
Jul 28, 2010
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you can't lie about derived information (such as P/T of a creature)
at higher REL you can refuse to answer, at FNM REL you have to answer truthfully
proud member of the 2011 community team
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3 months ago ::
Mar 05, 2013 - 11:43AM
#24
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Date Joined:
Nov 16, 2007
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Would it be possible phrase it in a shady way, like "Two exalted triggers makes him a 4/4?" (when there was actually 3 triggers) or something to that affect in an effort to have the controlling player give up one of the triggers if they acknowledge the question?
To repeat 2goth4u's quote:
But let's say you attack and say "swing for 2." Now what? If you represent information that indicates you've forgotten the triggered ability, then you are considered to have missed it. "Swing for 2. No blocks? Ha ha! It's actually 3!" is not an angle available to you.
If you say and you think it's true, it's a missed trigger. You've lost that third exalted.
If you say that and you know it's not true, it's cheating. You can't lie about derived information.
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3 months ago ::
Mar 05, 2013 - 12:06PM
#25
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Date Joined:
Mar 30, 2011
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You're getting into grey area here. If you have a 2/2 exalted creature, it's not untrue to say "swing for 2" because that is correct up until Exalted would resolve. If you declare that the creature's power is only 2 AFTER the point at which Exalted would have resolved, then it will be either a missed trigger or Cheating, depending on investigation. As the defending player, if the opponent says "swing for 2" you should still assume the player has remembered the trigger until there is a real indication that it was forgotten. This means you can make your block based on the assumption that the creature is indeed a 3/3, since that's the optimal play. Then if the player actually forgets, it's a bonus for you.
OR, you can make a block HOPING the player has actually forgotten, and that the creature will be a 2/2 when damage happens. However, when the opponent remembers, you can't get mad about it. You're playing a gambling game there by trying to gain advantage based on your opponent's misplays rather than playing the game of Magic. Remember that before lapsing triggers, all invisible triggers were ALWAYS assumed to have resolved. Play as if that's still the case. The difference now is that your opponent actually CAN FORGET an invisible trigger, and you'll benefit when that happens. Play Magic: the Gathering, not Magic: the Policy.
Level 2 DCI Judge
Orange, CA
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3 months ago ::
Mar 05, 2013 - 12:36PM
#26
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Date Joined:
Jun 14, 2011
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You're getting into grey area here. If you have a 2/2 exalted creature, it's not untrue to say "swing for 2" because that is correct up until Exalted would resolve. If you declare that the creature's power is only 2 AFTER the point at which Exalted would have resolved, then it will be either a missed trigger or Cheating, depending on investigation. As the defending player, if the opponent says "swing for 2" you should still assume the player has remembered the trigger until there is a real indication that it was forgotten. This means you can make your block based on the assumption that the creature is indeed a 3/3, since that's the optimal play. Then if the player actually forgets, it's a bonus for you.
Your sig says you are a level 2 judge, I hope you would never rule like that in a FNM. 'Swing for 2' with exalted triggers to come is misleading at best, cheating at worst.
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3 months ago ::
Mar 05, 2013 - 12:46PM
#27
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Date Joined:
Mar 30, 2011
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No, I was mostly talking about Competitive REL, where the IPG applies for missed triggers.
However, at FNM, I don't think this could ever really lead to a disqualification. A player trying to gain advantage by acting in a way that he or she believes is supported by policy is not Cheating. Of course this is misleading, and that would be the whole point. However, it's not illegal. It's also not something I would ever do personally, but that's not the guideline I use to make rulings. I use the policy documents provided.
How to handle forgotten triggers at Regular REL is something that we're still getting used to at this point. Never before could they actually be forgotten; the opponent always had to point them out. Now that it's possible to ignore an opponent's triggers, what is and isn't OK is much less obvious. I would ask a player doing this to try to play in a more clear way, as FNM is not the appropriate place for "gaming the system." I would also advise the opponent to ask questions to clarify what's happening before making decisions if there's any uncertainty.
Level 2 DCI Judge
Orange, CA
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3 months ago ::
Mar 05, 2013 - 1:04PM
#28
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Actually this is from the article:
But let's say you attack and say "swing for 2." Now what? If you represent information that indicates you've forgotten the triggered ability, then you are considered to have missed it. "Swing for 2. No blocks? Ha ha! It's actually 3!" is not an angle available to you.
Based on the article if the person said "swing for 2" and then at declare blocks or even damage dealing the option for exalted is lost.
www.wizards.com/magic/magazine/article.a...
I was just seeking on clarification of the exalted trigger. Sounds like some say you have to declare it at the declaration of combat, others are saying at damage dealing. Since I'm just now return back to mtg (from a long break that started in 1998) I just want some clarification. So my understanding since this is a non-visible game change you don't have to actually declare it. But if your opponent asked you and you say "swing for 2" you have now intentionally missed the exalted trigger. But in competitive REL you don't have to declare exalted if asked you just stay quiet?
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3 months ago ::
Mar 05, 2013 - 1:22PM
#29
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Date Joined:
Mar 30, 2011
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Ok, I didn't see that part of the article. So yeah, I guess you simply can't try to trick your opponent into thinking you've forgotten a trigger like this. You can remain silent until the trigger would affect the visible game state, or acknowledge the trigger, but providing misleading information gets you to a missed trigger. Thanks for the info.
As previously stated, a trigger is not considered missed until you get to a point where it would affect the visible game state (creature dying, damage being dealt, blockers being declared illegally, etc.). As soon as you get to that point, you must demonstrate awareness of your trigger somehow. The way you acknowledge it isn't particularly important, as long as there's no question that you didn't forget it. "Deal 3 damage" with your 2/2 exalted is fine. "Your creature dies, mine lives" is fine.
You don't have to declare it when you attack in order to get it, but if the opponent asks you about it, you will have to acknowledge it. There's no benefit to NOT mentioning it when your opponent clearly hasn't forgotten about it anyway. The only reason to not mention it is in the hope that your opponent forgets it and you get an advantage. And if you say "No... no exalted..." when you really do have exalted, aside from not getting your trigger, that's also an intentional "missing" of your own trigger, which is Cheating. It would be difficult to argue that when your opponent asked you about it, you really didn't remember it at that point...
Level 2 DCI Judge
Orange, CA
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3 months ago ::
Mar 05, 2013 - 2:09PM
#30
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Date Joined:
Feb 10, 2005
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Would it be possible phrase it in a shady way, like "Two exalted triggers makes him a 4/4?" (when there was actually 3 triggers) or something to that affect in an effort to have the controlling player give up one of the triggers if they acknowledge the question?
To repeat 2goth4u's quote:
But let's say you attack and say "swing for 2." Now what? If you represent information that indicates you've forgotten the triggered ability, then you are considered to have missed it. "Swing for 2. No blocks? Ha ha! It's actually 3!" is not an angle available to you.
If you say and you think it's true, it's a missed trigger. You've lost that third exalted.
If you say that and you know it's not true, it's cheating. You can't lie about derived information.
I actually meant as the defender I say "Two exalted triggers makes him a 4/4?" so if they just affirm it, they've skipped one of the triggers. The trick would be to get the trigger controller to acknowledge the wrong number of triggers.
I was responding to this:
The current philosophy of the tournament rules is "assume a trigger has resolved until there is evidence that it hasn't".
Exalted creates a non-visible effect on the game state; it has to be acknowledged by its controller before the change (in this case the change to the attacking creature's p/t) has an effect on the visible game state (in this case on the life total of the defending player, or potentially on the survival of a blocking creature).
If player B is unsure whether or not A remembers Exalted, he has to either play it safe and block, potentially risking one of his creatures, or gamble that A will forget and risk being hit with more damage than he was hoping, or play it really safe and ask A what the creature's p/t are. He does risk alerting A to the trigger if A had actually forgotten, but he'll have to live with that. And if A answers "2/2", then he has missed his trigger and cannot later claim that it silently resolved.
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