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3 months ago ::
Mar 01, 2013 - 8:30AM
#1
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Date Joined:
Jun 30, 2010
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I believe this has to do with the layering rules, but not sure and need help. I have Lazav  out then somehow put multiple creature cards into opponents' graveyards at same time (mill, boardwipe where Lazav survives, etc.). All trigger Lazav, letting me order them as I want on the stack. One of those creatures is Steel Hellkite  . If I stack the Lazav triggers to where he would clone something else after Steel Hellkite, then activate the firebreathing ability of Hellkite when I can, would Lazav retain this pump until end of turn when he finally clones the next creature(s) on the stack? I want to get this straight in case it could help/matter with combat tricks, commander damage boost, etc. I try to liken it to a 4/4 creature being pumped with Giant Growth  type effect, then later that same turn (maybe in response to pump) having P/T set to something via Turn to Frog  type effect. Would said creature just be a 1/1 or would it be a 4/4 instead of 7/7 (essentially a 1/1 creature with +3/+3 still affecting it instead of 4/4 creature with +3/+3 still affecting it)
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3 months ago ::
Mar 01, 2013 - 8:32AM
#2
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Date Joined:
Jul 28, 2010
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it will keep the bonus granted by Steel Hellkite 's ability the basic 5/5 from the dragon is overwritten, but the +X/+0 still applies
proud member of the 2011 community team
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3 months ago ::
Mar 01, 2013 - 8:37AM
#3
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Date Joined:
Jun 30, 2010
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thanks for the answer but if I need to prove it in future games, can you or someone please give me the ruling just in case?
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3 months ago ::
Mar 01, 2013 - 8:42AM
#4
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Date Joined:
Jan 19, 2003
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thanks for the answer but if I need to prove it in future games, can you or someone please give me the ruling just in case?
Here are the relevant rules (as you surmised, it is an issue of the layer rules):
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613.1. The values of an object's characteristics are determined by starting with the actual object. For a card, that means the values of the characteristics printed on that card. For a token or a copy of a spell or card, that means the values of the characteristics defined by the effect that created it. Then all applicable continuous effects are applied in a series of layers in the following order:
613.1a Layer 1: Copy effects are applied. See rule 706, "Copying Objects."
613.1b Layer 2: Control-changing effects are applied.
613.1c Layer 3: Text-changing effects are applied. See rule 612, "Text-Changing Effects."
613.1d Layer 4: Type-changing effects are applied. These include effects that change an object's card type, subtype, and/or supertype.
613.1e Layer 5: Color-changing effects are applied.
613.1f Layer 6: Ability-adding and ability-removing effects are applied.
613.1g Layer 7: Power- and/or toughness-changing effects are applied.
613.2. Within layers 1-6, apply effects from characteristic-defining abilities first (see rule 604.3), then all other effects in timestamp order (see rule 613.6). Note that dependency may alter the order in which effects are applied within a layer. (See rule 613.7.)
613.3. Within layer 7, apply effects in a series of sublayers in the order described below. Within each sublayer, apply effects in timestamp order. (See rule 613.6.) Note that dependency may alter the order in which effects are applied within a sublayer. (See rule 613.7.)
613.3a Layer 7a: Effects from characteristic-defining abilities that define power and/or toughness are applied. See rule 604.3.
613.3b Layer 7b: Effects that set power and/or toughness to a specific number or value are applied.
613.3c Layer 7c: Effects that modify power and/or toughness (but don't set power and/or toughness to a specific number or value) are applied.
613.3d Layer 7d: Power and/or toughness changes from counters are applied. See rule 121, "Counters."
613.3e Layer 7e: Effects that switch a creature's power and toughness are applied. Such effects take the value of power and apply it to the creature's toughness, and take the value of toughness and apply it to the creature's power.
613.6. Within a layer or sublayer, determining which order effects are applied in is usually done using a timestamp system. An effect with an earlier timestamp is applied before an effect with a later timestamp. So: after all the lazav triggers and hellkite activations have resolved, there are multiple effects trying to make lazav a copy of something, and one or more steel hellkite effects trying to increase lazav by +1/+0. The copy effects are applied first, in layer 1. These are applied in timestamp order, which means the early copy effects get overwritten and only the last one sticks. Next, we apply the +1/+0 effects on top of whatever lazav became via copying. End result: lazav is a copy of the last thing that you chose to copy, it has hexproof and its ability, and it has one or more instances of +1/+0 until the end of the turn.
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3 months ago ::
Mar 01, 2013 - 8:46AM
#5
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Date Joined:
Jun 21, 2006
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Also:
201.4. Text that refers to the object it’s on by name means just that particular object and not any other objects with that name, regardless of any name changes caused by game effects.
Which confirms that the +1/+0 effect granted to the object called «Steel Hellkite» will continue to affect that same object even if it changes name or appearance.
«Dystocracy : A system of government in which corrupt leadership colludes with dishonest bankers and greedy elites in order to ensure that productive members of society –people who actually do useful work- bear the greatest share of taxes while gaining the least benefit possible.»
Sounds familiar?
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3 months ago ::
Mar 01, 2013 - 8:51AM
#6
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Date Joined:
Jun 30, 2010
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thanks for the rules and the detailed explanation. this will come in handy as an interesting combat trick since there are some firebreathing type of creatures in my friends' decks (shades, steel hellkite, etc.)
BTW, is there another term for the firebreathing type effects in other colors? Like are Shades' pump called "swampbreathing," Steel Hellkite's ability still "fire"breathing even though it has colorless cost unlike others, etc.?
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3 months ago ::
Mar 01, 2013 - 8:52AM
#7
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Date Joined:
Oct 29, 2007
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the activation of the P/T mod ability creates a continuous effect on that object with a duration until end of turn, the ability applies in layer 7c if memory serves
the copy effects of Lazav each apply in layer 1 and they each layer on one after the other changing the copiable values of Lazav
the mods in layer 7c adjust whatever values the object has once layer 1 effects are applied to it
MtG Rules Advisor &
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3 months ago ::
Mar 01, 2013 - 10:34AM
#8
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Date Joined:
Apr 12, 2012
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There's no official name for the ability, so we usually call it firebreathing. Get as creative as you like.
For example, Steel Hellkite might have "colorless firebreathing" or "2 mana firebreathing" or even "artifact firebreathing."
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