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Magic: The Gathering Rules Q&A Casting a Champion without removing a creature
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3 months ago  ::  Feb 25, 2013 - 6:45AM #1
Treestache
Date Joined: Feb 25, 2013
Posts: 3
My question: If I cast a creature who has the ability "champion a creature" but do not want to remove another creature of the same type (causing the original champion creature to be immediately sacrificed) does the champion creature count as coming into the battlefield for the purposes of other trigger abilities?

The situation: I play a Reaper King Commander deck. I had my Reaper King on the battle field and I had a Changeling Berserker in my hand. I wanted to play my changeling berserker and trigger Reaper Kings ability (destroy target permanent), but I did not have another creature for Changeling Berserker to champion, I think I can do it but my opponent was convinced that I needed another creature.
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3 months ago  ::  Feb 25, 2013 - 6:50AM #2
adeyke
  • Celestial Teapots are broken!
Date Joined: Feb 24, 2007
Posts: 9,376
That works. When the Champion ability resolves, you just choose not to exile anything, and thus have to sacrifice the Changeling Berserker . It did enter the battlefield, so Reaper King 's ability triggered.
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3 months ago  ::  Feb 25, 2013 - 6:52AM #3
will_dice
Date Joined: Oct 18, 2009
Posts: 5,445

The Champion keyword ability triggers when the creature enters the battlefield, not when the creature spell is cast.



In your example: you cast Changeling Berserker from your hand (you don't make any decision about Champion at this point). Your opponent doesn't try to counter it, so Changeling Berserker enters the battlefield. This triggers both its own Champion and Reaper King 's ability (you must choose a target for Reaper's ability, but don't make any decision about championing yet). You put those triggers on the stack in any order you want (it doesn't matter much here).
* When the champion ability resolves, you choose to exile some other creature you control, or to sacrifice the changeling.
* When the Reaper's ability resolves, the targeted permanent is destroyed (it doesn't matter what happened to the changeling at this point)

[<o>]
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3 months ago  ::  Feb 25, 2013 - 6:53AM #4
Kenjiblade
Date Joined: May 6, 2011
Posts: 473
The reminder text on most creatures with champion would answer this pretty clearly, but let's bring along the Comprehensive Rules as well:

702.70a Champion represents two triggered abilities. “Champion an [object]” means “When this
permanent enters the battlefield,
sacrifice it unless you exile another [object] you control” and
“When this permanent leaves the battlefield, return the exiled card to the battlefield under its
owner’s control.”



 The first champion ability cannot, and does not trigger until the creature with it has entered the battlefield.  So, yes, your Changeling Berserker will cause Reaper King 's triggered ability to trigger, even if you choose not to sacrifice a creature.

Edit - Also, besides the fact that it says that it has entered the battlefield, further proof that it's on the battlefield:

701.14a To sacrifice a permanent, its controller moves it from the battlefield directly to its owner’s
graveyard. A player can’t sacrifice something that isn’t a permanent, or something that’s a
permanent he or she doesn’t control. Sacrificing a permanent doesn’t destroy it, so regeneration
or other effects that replace destruction can’t affect this action.



The fact that Changeling Berserker can even be sacrificed is proof enough that it has indeed entered the battlefield, as it wouldn't be a permanent (and would not be able to be sacrificed) otherwise.
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3 months ago  ::  Feb 25, 2013 - 6:58AM #5
ikegami
Date Joined: Nov 16, 2007
Posts: 2,231
Your opponent is probably thinking of cards with "as an additional cost, sacrifice a creature" such as Artillerize . Those modify the cost to cast the card, which much be payed up front. Changeling Berserker (just like Reaper King ), merely has an enter-the-battlefield triggered ability.
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3 months ago  ::  Feb 25, 2013 - 8:29AM #6
Treestache
Date Joined: Feb 25, 2013
Posts: 3
Thanks everybody, I thought that's how it went but I just needed somebody to back me up.

So there was this other weird thing that happened during that game that we were both unsure about, so here it goes:
He had in play butcher of Malakir and Grimgrin, Corpse-Born . I had in Play Reaper King , Lightning Greaves (attached to RK) and Changeling Berserker . Berserker had championed Adaptive Automaton  when it came into play.

It was his turn and in his attack phase he declared that  Grimgrin, Corpse-Born was attaching, and Grimgrin's ability was targeting my   Changeling Berserker . So what happens first? Does my  Adaptive Automaton come into play before  Butcher of Malakir ability (triggered by CB entering the graveyard) causes me to sacrifice  Reaper King ? Do I get to blow something up with Reaper King's triggered ability, or does he get sacrificed before the Automation comes into play.
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3 months ago  ::  Feb 25, 2013 - 8:33AM #7
Bowshewicz
Date Joined: Apr 12, 2012
Posts: 1,625
Butcher of Malakir's ability won't trigger when your creatures die.

In a situation where two triggered abilities did need to be placed on the stack, the active player's abilities are stacked first, meaning they resolve second. If your opponent was attacking, your stuff resolves first.

For example, if you blocked Grimgrin with the Berserker , they die at the same time*. You get to put the Automaton back into play, then you get to Vindicate off Reaper King , then you have to sacrifice a creature.

*This assumes that Grimgrin is a 5/5, which means he didn't get to destroy anything when he attacked. Let's assume someone playing another game next to you took out his target with Ass Whuppin' and countered the ability.
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3 months ago  ::  Feb 25, 2013 - 8:34AM #8
Kenjiblade
Date Joined: May 6, 2011
Posts: 473
Wait -- in the scenario as you presented, Butcher of Malakir 's ability hasn't triggered at all.  Its trigger condition is "Whenever Butcher of Malakir or a creature you control is put into a graveyard from the battlefield."

Since your opponent controls Butcher of Malakir , and you are sacrificing Changeling Berserker , the Butcher's ability doesn't trigger.

Edit - Let's say your opponent controlled a fictional creature whose trigger condition is "Whenever a creature is put into a graveyard from the battlefield, each opponent sacrifices a creature."  We'll call that fictional creature "Thing A" for the following example.  In that case, it would play out like this:

Changeling Berserker and  Thing A's triggered abilities both want to go on the stack at the same time.  To handle situations like this, APNAP (Active Player, Non Active Player) order is used.  That is, the active player puts all of their triggered abilities on the stack first, and then the non-active player does the same.  Since it is your opponent's turn when this is happening, this means that your Berserker's ability goes on the stack after Thing A's ability.  Since it was the last object added, this means that you get your exiled creature back in time to sacrifice it for Thing A's ability.*

* Again, though, this scenario is based on a card that doesn't exist, and is merely handling how things would work, if such a card existed.
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3 months ago  ::  Feb 25, 2013 - 8:51AM #9
Treestache
Date Joined: Feb 25, 2013
Posts: 3
Ahh, stupid mistake. Thanks for clearing that up. That APNAP business clears up a lot of things for me too.
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Magic: The Gathering Rules Q&A Casting a Champion without removing a creature
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